Other "Thinking Drafts" and writing by Keith Drury -- http://www.indwes.edu/tuesday .

RESPONSES to "Unintended Consequences"

From: JoeWayWat@aol.com
I first want to make sure I understand your question..."What "other" [else] [unintended] thing is going to come from the Promise Keepers movement "besides" the thing that was intended?" The question implies that the "first" purpose [intended] will in fact be accomplished. Your point being that in almost all [if not all] efforts made by men in their attempts to promote the Kingdom of God, some unintended, unforseen, and sometimes regretable, and sometimes surprisingly great, fall-out has occured. Are we to assume that the "first" [intended] purpose of the PK's movement is stated in the "Seven-fold Purpose" statement which is well advertised by this time? If so, then what beyond this seven-fold purpose statement can our imaginations conjure up as a possible fall-out? Good or bad.

1) Its quite possible that a genuine conversion experience which we understand as essential to eternal life will become confused [or considered unnecessary] in some people's mind, and replaced with an over-powering sentimental "male-moment" which does in fact lead to correcting some bad behavior. This same kind of an experience can be witnessed in a secular counseling office. We need not feel badly at any time bad behavior is corrected, but such a circumstance is not equal to a repentence which leads to conversion.

2) Without doubt there has been for sometime now a tremendous "influence" spreading throughout the evangelical churches for a melting of all theologies into one, [meaning that there can be no absolute truths among evangelical churches, we will in effect have our own "political correctness"] and the PK movement is adding an even greater influence to this idea. Some consider the move in this direction to be healthy, while others will resist it till their dying breath. Wesleyans are going to find themselves pushed even more into surrendering their Wesleyan distinctive, which as I see it now won't be much of a push, as we haven't far to go anyway. (Another subject for another time!]

3) On the postive side, if Judge Robert L. Bork is correct, the PK's movement may just be the corrective indgredient so desperately needed in our society which will keep us from plunging over the clift to be dashed to bits on the jagged rocks below! Time will tell. --J. W. Watkins

"From: "James J Lake"
-Men begin to understand why they are really here on earth.
-Things like purpose, integrity, character and accountability start to become a life-style.
-Dads begin to spend longer than five minutes a day with their kids.
-Men everywhere begin to see the importance of non-sexual touching.
-Men actually start keeping their promises.
-Macho behavior is replaced by a servant`s heart.
-Little girls want to grow up and marry someone that loves God like Dad.
-In singles groups, Godly single woman are preyed on less and prayed for more.
-Men actually are now listening when their wives are speaking to them.
-Men start talking more to God and each other about things that will last forever.
-More men start doing things like short term missionary work and long term commitment to Bible study and prayer.
-They start becoming good stewards of their time, talent and money.
-They give up addiction to the world and become dependent on the King of King.
-They stop being double-minded and become men with the single purpose of glorifying the living God.
-The world and the media continues to be mystified and astonished as ordinary men are transformed by an extraordinary God.

FROM: Don Joy
I suggest that you probe the following BEFORE trying to second guess PK:
YFC
Campus Crusade
Navigators
Intervarsity
Billy Graham Association
NCAAP
Southern Leadership
These have been around for 30 to 50 years. Do you have any insights about discrepancies between their intended and unintended but actual consequences?

Robbie and I drove to Winona Lake, Indiana before our first anniversary had arrived to hear an emerging young evangelist speaking to YFC International in Billy Sunday Tabernacle--his name was Billy Graham. YFC would become the Seventh-Day Church of Youth for a few decade, competing with churches (contrary to PK's full support of pastors and church ministries). YFC actually reduced church kid's attendance at church by inventing Saturday night rallies and wearing them out so they slept in on Sundays. VS PK's heavy support of pastors and Church Ministries. So I have been reflecting on the parallels and contrasts between YFC and PK, since both were visible evidences of God's work in the world. The white-buck shoes on overweight YFC director types singing "tip toe through the tulips" was an image that emerged with YFC that seems not to have a parallel in PK--except that they are in the John the Baptist "outdoor stadium" event. And the technology of Giant Full Daylight color screens has made the stadium events attractive.

You have a wonderful "nose" for back side questions. We likely need to avoid any co-conspiracy! --DON

From: David Sheets
I hope, I pray, I plead that the following will take place because of the PK influence:

"The Church" will awaken from the doldrums created by the neatly defined boundaries of denominationalism. . . oops, that's an intended consequence.

The Body of Christ will draw strength with renewed vigor by removing the barriers of racial differences. . . oops, that's an intended consequence.

That men will stand tall and take seriously their responsibility to be Godly husbands and fathers. . . oops, that's an intended consequence. Shucks Keith, you've got me stumped. GREAT QUESTION!
-- David L. Sheets

From: Norm Wilson wilsonn@wesleyan.org
Your law of unintended consequences is probably true. But wouldn't it take a prophet to foresee what may be the lasting result of Promise Keepers? It may even be too early to see what direction PK will eventually take. -- Norm

From: AKnight949@aol.com
It may be difficult to predict the "unintended" results of PK, because PK seems to be changing in direction. First, PK was calling Christian men to accountability in their lives, with specific regard to their family life. Then they moved toward a more expansive call to holiness in their Washington DC gathering. Their stated intention for the next two years is evangelical, by calling current PKers to bring their lost and lukewarm friends to the more than 30 per year, free, stadium and arena events. In the year 2000 they intend to go international.

From: James and Lois Watkins
The Promise Keepers movement has shot itself squarely in the foot (or perhaps in St. Paul's "head") by including the explosive and dangerously vague promise to become "leaders" in the home.

If God created "male AND FEMALE to rule the earth" (Genesis 1:27-28), and if Paul commands husbands and wives to submit to EACH OTHER (Ephesians 5:21), and if in Christ there is "NO MALE OR FEMALE" (Galatians 3:28), then the PK's have created a real PR and PC problem.

My fear is that biblical equality--for which [my denomination] fought nearly one hundred years ago--is being set right back to the 1850's.

The concept of men repenting for their lack of discipleship to Christ and spiritual input in the home are noble and biblical goals. I wish them well in becoming spiritual equals in the church and home. But I pray that PK has not promoted a revival of the patriarchal "Father Knows Best" mentality that has kept women as second-class Christians and kept them from exercising THEIR leadership skills in so many churches and homes.

-- Jim Watkins

From: NAME WITHELD@iserv.net
Keith, just a couple from my stand point, one that I would do almost anything for a husband who desired to be a Promise Keeper. I have to check myself over and over again for I struggle with envy when I notice the PK guys after a weekend together and watch how they treat their wives and families. Oh, what I wouldn't do for a PK husband.

From: "Kenneth S. Drury"
I think the unintended consequences will be a political movement--probably not consisting of the same leadership--but formed by well-intentioned groups within the Promise Keeper movement reacting to continuous charges by critics that Promise Keepers has a hidden political agenda. (The "it's a free country, we can have political views too!" groups).

These political seeds will be watered by Christian political activist types seduced by a PK label that can mobilize 700,000+ voting men to travel cross-country, leaving behind nearly as many sympathetic voting wives, and an extrapolated exponent of non-attending sympathizers. These neo-PKers will feed the now- louder gay/lesbian (etc.) critic groups, driving a wedge between the politico and non-politico PKers and forcing a schism of PK leadership, with the neo-PKers mobilizing for another march on Washington in fewer numbers and the orthodox PKers retreating to local support groups with an eighth promise not to get involved in politics. PK will become the football coach chapter in Church history where the Holy Spirit used a willing servant to convict millions of male hearts of their need for individual repentance and Christ-likeness. PK will also become a slim volume in the social/political history of the world with a revisionist epilogue completed some time at the turn of the century and signed with a bold flourish by the author of confusion. . . .

Meanwhile, the Holy Spirit will have opened the next chapter in church history by prompting a willing servant to declare the world to be his parish or something like that and the evangelical church will have its next new thing. --Scott Drury

From: Gary Swyers
1. Alienation of various strands of people in our culture.

2. Retrospect: A series of historic meetings in the 90's that brought men together in numbers beyond belief and inspired role change in Christian men. "It WAS an incredible movement." Collective memory to be revisited but not replicated.

3. Mega-parachurch business.

4. Motivation for others toward movement mentality.

-Gary Swyers, Chaplain Indiana Wesleyan University

From: Bill Meyer
1. The hysterical warnings of NO(S)W (the national organization of some women) will alienate many of the women's right people on the left and weaken the radical woman's movement even further than it is already.

2. Many mainstream but conservative evangelicals, particularly of the reformed perspective will become increasingly aware of and reject PK's bottom line agenda, that is Christian and cultural unity (not union or uniformity). This will be true, particularly as PK tries to reach out to "evangelical" Catholics. For an example of the Reformed theology folk's take on PK, check out Lingonier Ministry's page and the comments of R.C. Sproul.

3. A schism will emerge in evangelicalism: Those advocating "evangelical ecumenicity" with the test for fellowship being a "Billy Grahamish" broad definition of what an evangelical is will occupy one side. Those wanting to hold the line in the area of doctrinal purity on the other. Those dismissing PK as a "Trojan Horse" of the ecumenical movement will become further removed from American culture similar to the fundamentalists of the 1940s. They more and more view themselves as the "true church."

4. It will become increasingly difficult to distinguish churches of various denominations that are "PK" churches. They will become more and more similar in a number of areas: ie--worship style, acceptance of the supernatural, fervency of prayer for revival, rejection of the "homogeneous" unit principle and active movement toward multi ethnicity.

5. A large defection from PK will occur when politically conservative evangelicals begin to realize the political implications of "racial reconciliation". If you can find it read David Maines' post-mortem on Circle Church in Chicago. This article appeared a few years back in Leadership Magazine. It illustrates what can happen when white folk don't understand the "power" issues involved in the race thing and just believe it about making nice, love, peace, and all the other hippy values that we boomers still hold to in the core of our being.

-- Bill Meyer meyer@vitinc.com

From: Rod Pickett
Off the top of my head, I suspect that PromiseKeepers will either give the evangelical movement legitimacy or further marginalize it the public mind as a bunch of kooks.

The reaction I'm hearing to the televised rally in Washington is "That's not something I would participate in myself, but I think it's a good thing."

However, I've been surprised by the strong reaction against this movement by several "minority" organizations and power-brokers.

By the way, I've been impressed with PromiseKeepers' commitment to sticking to their stated goals. They at least seem to be avoiding the common danger of getting sidetracked by success.

From: "Eugene A. Glendenning Ph.D."
This column caught my attention. There was a temptation to respond to it by looking at the deep unconscious and the concept of triggering of the that material. As I thought on the question What are the Unintended Consequences of the Promise Keepers movement?

1. It may pull men away from the church into forming another organization which may take on a church like function.

2. Evangelical churches may tend to get lost into one big church with a suppression of the doctrine of holiness.

3. With the growth of numbers there may be a stimulation of increased opposition of the secular or anti-church organization.

4. The personality structure of the leadership can contribute to the unintended consequences of the Movement.

It is good to have a column that stimulate one to think.
-- Dr. E.A. Glendenning

From: Jjemdnce@aol.com
As long as PK is in God's will, they will not have to worry about consequences. Who will judge PK a failure, us or God? The consequences of their true intentions will only be seen on judgement day. --Jeff Dance Birmingham, AL

From: Steve and Kathy Brewer
One of the "unintended consequences" of the Promise Keepers movement has definitely been the backlash from women who can't accept the concept of "wives submitting to their husbands". This is difficult enough even for many devoted Christians to accept; non-Christians simply find it ludicrous. Unfortunately, non-Christians are viewing Promise Keepers from a non-Christian perspective (I guess that is stating the obvious), and it is impossible for them to swallow something that appears to be totally opposite to the idea that the sexes are equal.

From: "David Whittaker"
I hope that the intended objectives of the Promise Keeper organization does result in a mass movement of men becoming servant leaders in their homes, businesses, and churches. The lack of servant leadership has been several generations in the making. I hope that it will not be that long before we see any tangible results in our culture.

As to an unintended result, I would hope that it would result in pastor's having more time to devote to the preaching/teaching of the word in the equipping of the saints. I would hope that we would see a true priesthood of believers, were everyone (male AND female) is operating in the area of their giftedness.

One fear that I have is that PK will eventually becomes a stale program rather than a movement of God. If that happens, we can shelve PK along other movements like the YMCA that offer no semblance to what they once were. -- David Whittaker Raleigh, NC

From: Matt Guthrie
A thoughtful person may do well to ask, "What are the unintended consequences?" but is likely to be an unanswerable question. It is a good question to ask along the way to prevent any UNDESIRABLE consequences vs. unintended ones. For example, in regards to PK, we men would do well to ensure that radical feminist fears of more male domination not realized as a result from the movement. I believe that the PK leadership is taking the right steps here. Gender reconciliation is a serious, yet sometime ignored issue in the evangelical world because we are afraid of being labeled liberal. But to answer your question, I don't think we can ever predict the unintended consequences. To do so would contradict the very nature of the word. If forced to take a guess, I know it would NOT be revival, stronger families, racial reconciliation, or denominational cooperation because these are the goals of PK. Anything else is fair game. --Matt Guthrie

From: "calvin l. vermeire"
hopefully, one of the consequences of pk is that there will be an infection of godliness in the men of America. I know in this area (NE Pa.) there is already an increase in Wed. prayer meeting attendance by men. --Bud Vermeire--reader

From: Tim Elmore
I think there are some obvious positive outcomes to the PK movement, that we will all see within 5-10 years: 1. Unity among believers. I lump it in with what God has done thru CoMission. We finally got together on something, and the getting together was as big as the ministry that we did.

2. Heighten awareness of traditional / biblical values among the non-participants. John Maxwell got to meet with President Clinton during the DC event, and got to explain much of what is going on. Clinton had never met Coach McCartney--but will likely do so soon. It was positive impact.

3. Male spiritual leadership, and passion for God. I don't think PK has yet touched on how to take men very deep, but it has introduced a bunch of men to the idea of being a disciple of Jesus. It has been a good entry level experience. Having worked on some PK task forces in Denver, I know they are very aware of their being an "event" movement, and their weakness in getting the goods to the local level, but I do think we are way ahead of where we would have been without them.

--Tim Elmore

From: Richard Perkins
If an unintended consequence is the same as a latent function then here's my suggestion:

The manifest function of PK (the one that is obvious and intended) is to make men more faithful to the promises they made to their wives and to God at their wedding ceremonies.

The latent function (which is "hidden," and which no one intends, but is nonetheless just as real) is for a lot of American men to experience a strong sense of social solidarity as Christians...which, in this society in this day and age, is quite rare. On the secular front, one can experience some of this sort of thing in the military, at college and professional sports events, and so forth), but for Christian men it practically non-existent on any appreciable scale. Our society is so differentiated, and our cultural values so slanted toward the individualistic, privatistic end of things that Christian men practically exist in isolation.

So, PKer's gives American Christian men a chance at doing something that they deeply need, but wouldn't seek after if the latent function were brought up to the manifest level.

From: Iris Muriel Wegmueller
How do you find the PromiseKeepers movement on this side of the earth? Is there anything similar in New Zealand? I would like to see it in order to believe it.. Kind regards and best wishes, Iris

From: "Steven DeNeff"
At least they're lighting a candle. It is easier to be negative than positive because our culture of disbelief confuses skepticism with intellect; and no one can shoot at your clay pigeon because you're still on the ground blasting away at everything other people send up. Try launching a few programs of your own and then weep as the wanna-be theologians make a name for themselves on the ground by blasting your ideas to smithereens.

[On the other hand] The men from my church came back from the last conference (in Pontiac) just gushing to their wives late into the night. Get a grip, fellas. Not all of the problems in your home were yours. Sometimes *she's* wrong and you're just gonna have to fight her. Women often want a man with a slow hand until all at once, he's boring. Soon after, he's history. If PK is right, women don't wanna lead, they wanna follow, so she must not be allowed (as they are subtly enabling her to do)to set the standards for husbandry. He'll know when he is kind enough, spiritual enough, has had it enough, or is giving enough by whenever she tells him.

[also] PK is consistent with the culture's obsession with the family. Don't misunderstand this. Of course, I value the family too. But nothing serious or permanent will ever be done by men who are simply unwilling to put their families on hold for great periods of time. How many examples do you want? Luther? Wesley? Booth? Finney? Spurgeon? Edwards? Some of these men appreciated their families (Luther & Spurgeon) and others did not(Wesley and Finney). But all of them put them on hold for long periods of time in order to devote themselves to a task bigger than keeping the domestic shop. Men and ministers today expect a CS Lewis and Joy Davidson relationship, forgetting that Lewis' career was pretty well under wraps when his love affair began. One businessman put it: "if you want to spend all of your evenings at home with the wife, and all of your weekends at the lake with the children, I like you better, but don't expect to move ahead in this business." For better or worse, he has a point. In this, PK encourages the exchange of one nearsighted pursuit (making me happy) with another (making my family happy). Of course, these words are heresy today. Yes, I love my wife, kids, church, etc. Yes I spend time with them. We do vacations, weekends, camp fires, and backyard football games. But there is more (or at least "other").

From: "NAME WITHELD@compuserve.com
How could I foresee the "unintended consequences" of the PromiseKeepers Movement? I'm still trying figure out the "unintended mess" I made with my last staff decision!

So what do you think?

To contribute to the thinking on this issue e-mail your response to Tuesday@indwes.edu