Responses
to What
Evangelicals Believe About Tithing
Nathan Crawford said...
Great post. I believe
you are completely correct on what evangelicals believe about tithing. However,
I think the entire idea of tithing should be tossed. "Tithing" does
not occur in Scripture, nor does stewardship. It seems to me to be more about
being faithful. And being faithful means giving over one's whole life,
especially one's money - all of it. The New Testament definitely has this idea.
I think the Old Testament does as well. So, the goal becomes much more about
being a faithful believer in all that one does. This includes giving money.
David Drury said...
This is one of your more insightful and
thought-provoking articles. I have half a mind to send it to everyone in our
congregation to get a discussion going. This disparity is true in our
congregation and your claim: "There are hardly any other issues with such
a great difference of opinion between the pastors and the laity" is right
on. Of course, an economist would just say that it just follows the
self-interest of both parties.
But in the economy of God this issue should have better clarity and unanimity
than that.
I'll come back and see the discussion this starts. I bet it'll be lively.
-David
i'm glad you
added "at least the average evangelical" believes that..
i was going to ask--well, if
that's what the evangelicals believe..what
does that make me?
I guess I can go without titles like "evangelical"--maybe they can
just call me
A follower of Christ.
James Petticrew said...
There is a growing movement in the
In
Great article - I have been wrestled with how to
get people to give more...
Thank you notes is not that hard to do (grin).
Dave G said...
Keith,
I guess the most obvious area to address is the issue of tithing, however, I
believe it is symptomatic of evangelical thinking in general. There is no
pastoral authority to address any issue. If the congregant agrees with us, we
are good. If not, then they will go on believing what they choose to believe.
There is a whole lot of "me" and not a lot of "we" going on
in our churches, okay, my church :).
Where is the "us"ness I find in the Word?
Thank you, Keith, for taking the time to think on these issues and put yourself
out there in the writing. I know you have gotten beat up. If it matters there
are many of us that are thankful for your efforts.
I will be forwarding this to my pastoral staff and leadership.
One of your points I think we can learn from: How stinking hard would it be for
me to say "thank you"?
A week ago in a class one of the students talked
how we need to "sell" Jesus to the people,
and my initial thought was "why don't we just get a bunch of used car
salesmen in the pulpit. Now her point was to use salesman techniques to bring
more people to Christ.
I type all that to ask, are we going to have to change our approach to the lost
so that we can sell more "Jesus'" so that we can bring more money
into the church?
Do we preach salvation and tithes as gimmicks so that our numbers or finances
increase?
What type of churches are the current generation of
pastors leaving for those of us coming up?
Will the be Biblical based giving churches or will the pastor be out in two
years cause he preached too much on money?
Kurt A Beard said...
I would add that Evangelicals don't see tithing
as worship but as part of the membership commitment. Pastors constantly tell
visitors not to give an offering that this is a time for members to support the
church. Tithing is a Christian duty in the Evangelical mind not an act of God
centered worship. It seems tithing ranks right up there with not smoking;
visitors can smoke and not tithe while members cannot smoke and must tithe.
Adam said...
Keep on it Coach. I like to think of tithing as a
minimum commitment, to say "This is my God." If not, I give it to
other gods (entertainment, 401K, "nice things", etc) and so declare
my allegiance to them, despite what I might say. I heard that this is what
pagan nations surrounding
Crown Financial wrote a little diddy on this:
"How to know to whom to give"
(http://www.crown.org/Library/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=307). I like how they
show the purpose of the Israelite storehouse was 3 fold: Levites & priests,
orphans and widows, the Gentile poor. Then they make modern-day similarities.
(Is this valid?) They say if your church isn't fulfilling these purposes, you
could carefully consider giving outside of the church congregation.
I give more $$ to outside the local church. For me to give 10% to the local
church, I think I would have to come to grasps with Crown's stance that
"God holds the leaders of the church responsible for the distribution of
those funds (see Nehemiah 12:44-45, 13:5,13)" I
really hope I can come to this point. I guess what I really hope is that church
budgets would be used "better". And I guess every layman has a
"better" idea of how they could be used. Oh dear, I'm such a
protestant...
Coach - did you factor in the 100's of college students that make only hundreds
or a few thousand bucks / year? How will that influence your calculation?
Sniper said...
Nathan,
What is occuring then in the OT system of sacrifice
to the temple? I'll throw out the word tithing, but I need a new word then to
describe that system of giving.
Is anyone familiar with Tony Compolo's book "The
Kingdom of God is a Party?" I led a small study on this book's view on the
10% tithe in my apt. unit. His basic premise is that we have read the 10%
sacrifice to the temple wrong. Part of that was a sacrifice (that which was
burned up completely to God), but a lot of it was to throw a huge celebration
in honor of God's faithfulness. It was to come together, poor, rich, woman,
man, child, and celebrate God's providence. That 10% threw a party! No wonder
David was so excited to go to the temple in the Psalms!
Now...the consequence...the 90% was to be dedicated to the every day
functioning of life (or, the church in our case). In Compolos'
view, we essentially have reversed tithing. We dedicate 10% to the workings of
the church, and party with the 90% in our own individual ways. He sees the OT
as detailing a system where 10% "threw a party" and 90% was given to
God's workings in the every day life of the Jew.
Any thoughts?
Adam said...
Sniper -
I've been wondering about that 'party' idea after hearing Rob Bell preach about "God telling the Israelites to stop
working and throw a huge party." It really shook up my thinking...
How much should I be partying when I am aware of global realities of people
eating dirt to make their stomach feel full? Chris Heuertz
talked this week about how he goes to parties and poor families will spend all
their remaining savings on a celebration. In "Walking with the poor",
Bryant Myers quotes someone who says "The rich throw too few fiestas and
the poor throw too many..."
Where do I fit it?
How much expenditure qualifies as a celebration? (I'm not looking for an answer
of how many $$$, that's a bad road to go down, I'm just thinking aloud).
JustKara said...
You have described the people who attend our
church precisely. We as a pastoral staff, however, have adapted to this reality
and do not attempt to coerce 10%-tithing of our people. It is not only not supported by the New Testament but it is
impossible to accomplish. We now "compete" to raise funds just like
any other Christian organization.
What about the flip side of the coin. If a local
church believes in tithing, then does it also believe in distributing to those
who are a part of their fellowship as they have need? It seems just a bit
one-sided to urge someone earning below the poverty level as a demonstration of
their faith in God's provision, while at the same time the congregation ignores
their part in supplying for the financial need of those in their fellowship.
What is that last verse in Acts 2 really about? As a conscientious Wesleyan, I
can teach that our membership commitment urges (not requires) tithing (read it
closely), but as a conscientious Wesleyan, I also have the obligation to
faithfully teach the living example of the Acts 2 community living life in
common. The concern I have is that tithing is so easily separated from the
responsibility we have to contribute to the needs of one another. Any thoughts on this?
matthew said...
1. Our congregation knows that tithe means tenth.
They may not give that, but they know that.
2. I agree tithing isn't taught in the NT, but the transition from OT to NT is
always from the lesser to the greater. One author said, 'tithing is the
training wheels to giving'. 10% is a good place to start. I taught this very
point last night and it was well received.
3. I agree with quote 3 also. We are called to hold money loosely and give as
God leads. I believe God will lead most people to give the most of their giving
to the local church.
4. I agree with quote 4. We give to needs. If there is a need, the church
should meet the need. Giving isn't really about stocking a general fund, it's about meeting specific needs.
5. I don't care if I get thanked for my giving, but I do want to see fruit come
from my giving. I want to see results.
Personally, I give 10% to our local church right away. Then I give to specific
needs throughout the year as I feel led (usually 3-5%). I also tend to pick 1
or 2 parachurch ministries that were helpful to my discipleship each year and
give b/w 2-3% to them. If I'm below 15% at the end of the year, I feel
personally like I'm holding God's money too tightly.
Adam said...
What about tithing to ourselves? What qualifies
as a need for Church community? A coffee bar? A youth complex? A sweet sound system?
Yeah, we sacrifice, but we kind of invest in our own community (invest in our
kids). We give, but we enjoy a lot of it ourselves.
Where to draw the line...?
You know, I use to listen to these "mini
sermons" and believe them but considering that the leadership of the
church picks and chooses which texts they will preach and abide by, nothing
coming from church leadership anymore holds much credibility.
I find it interesting most leadership is so concerned with everyone keeping the
laws but for them it does not matter. Specific example, I drove past a large
church Sunday and was floored to see construction on the building occurring on
the Sabbath. And this at a church that has found it necessary
to distribute and display the 10 commandments in its community.
So, when church leadership decides to live by what it demands of others, then
talk to me about what God wants! Until then, keep your self-serving religion.
In response to the Anonymous above, I don't think
that it is fair to be critical of all leaders of churches because one church
chose to work on Sunday. There are churches out there who
call themselves "Bible-believing" but think Homosexual marraige is ok. My point is just because a particular
church breaks something we view as Biblical does not exclude us from our
responsibility to preach on what the Bible says on tithing, marraige,
or Sunday working.
Most pastors say: 1) A tithe = 10%;
2) The Bible requires it; 3) It should go to the local church; 4) it is an
obligation; and 5) it should be given without concern for being thanked.
I believe in tithing - giving a tenth - but what I do not know is a tenth of
what?
Ever hear a preacher say, "I hear people ask, 'should I tithe on the net,
or the gross?' Well, do you want God to bless you on the net or the gross?”
Let's talk a few moments about gross pay. I believe the
Mark: $50000 (gross) * 30% taxes = $35,000 (net) - $5000 (tithe) = $30,000
Bob: $50000 (gross) * 40% taxes = $30,000 (net) - $5000 (tithe) = $25,000
Adam: $50000 (gross) * 50% taxes = $25,000 (net) - $5000 (tithe) = $20,000
In this example, tithing on the gross costs me 14%, Bob 17%, and Adam 20% as a
percentage of net (spendable) income. So Adam has to
have the greatest amount of faith and reliance upon the Lord.
This does not take into consideration regional cost of living. For example, my
house is worth about $500k here in
An apples to apples comparison is even harder
between pastor and layman.
Example 1: My company pays expenses on my behalf that
are not in my gross pay. For example, my employer pays half (7.5%) of my social
security (FICA) tax, but my gross pay only reflects the half (7.5%) that I pay.
Pastors (in the
Example 2: Using round numbers; let’s say a pastor gets an annual salary of
$10,000 and lives in a parsonage (free of charge but with a fair market rental
value of $12,000; or a tax-free housing allowance of $12,000), plus utilities
of $2400. Is the tithe paid on the cost of the housing and utilities? $12,000 +
$2,400 + $10,000 (salary) - $2440 (tithe on gross) = $7560 (net).
In a cold winter, the tithe percentage goes up. There are other benefits that
some churches provide.
Aside: I once asked the church board to write down on a sheet of paper how much
they thought the pastor made. Out of 14 people, I got 12 different responses
ranging from $15,000 to $80,000. My company sends me a statement of how much it
costs them to employ me and it is substantially larger than my gross pay
number, which is hugely larger than my net. Pastors and laymen have trouble
figuring out what the gross and net compensation of the pastor is (because it
is structured differently than secular companies). A lot of it is tax
sheltered, and I want my pastor to take advantage of as many tax shelters as
possible – but to my original question: a tenth of what?
Mark
Let me add one more thought.
Keith does a good job at telling us what the laity think about tithing, but
does not tell us what the clergy mean by tithing. Preachers do say
"tithing means tenth" which leads to my question, "a tenth of
what?"
Mark
Adam said...
Mark -
I think (but could be wrong) that Crown Financial supports the gross tax. This
is in the American 21st c. setting. I've heard it said (is Rob Bell right?)
that taxes on Jews at Jesus' time could reach up to 80-90% at times. I'm
guessing they could not tithe a tenth of gross and actually live. Is there a %
at which we should give gross vs. net? If tax is only 10%, gross doesn't seem
like a big deal. But 50%? 65%?
Maybe these are the wrong questions :)
I think you are reinforcing the notion that God owns everything and we are to
keep only what we need, enough so that our lifestyles are not offensive to the
orphans and widows.
Pew Potato said...
Matthew 6:19-21
“Don’t collect for yourselves treasures on earth,
where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. But collect for
yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where
thieves don’t break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart
will be also.
James 5:1-6
Come now, you rich people! Weep and wail over the miseries that are coming on
you. Your wealth is ruined: your clothes are moth-eaten; your silver and gold
are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat
your flesh like fire. You stored up treasure in the last days! Look! The pay
that you withheld from the workers who reaped your fields cries out, and the
outcry of the harvesters has reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have
lived luxuriously on the land and have indulged yourselves. You have fattened
your hearts for the day of slaughter.
I wonder if the congregation's treasure is not in the church because their
heart is not really there. When I see a half-empty sanctuary on a holiday
weekend because people are off skiing, I wonder about priorities.
If our people's hearts were truly focused on God's kingdom, I think we wouldn't
need to worry about the percent they gave - the tithe would be a minimum.
G.R. ''Scott'' Cundiff said...
I am preaching through the book of Hebrews right
now and a few weeks ago I talked about Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek.
http://www.alvinnazarene.org/ra/melchizedek.asx
My belief is that tithing is an O.T. concept with a
N.T. application.
When N.T. Christians think about possessions, the focus is on stewardship
rather than tithing. All we have belongs to God and we are to be good stewards
of it.
But we also offer practical instruction on how to structure our stewardship to
support the work of the Church.
We don't say that we are under the Law, and therefore must tithe. However, we
do recognize that tithing is a practical way to approach our giving. We see
that the idea of a tenth equalizes the burden of giving, and that if the Church
does this the needs of the church are met.
So, we are stewards of all our possessions but we also say that, for practical
purposes, our people should apply the O.T. concept in supporting the work of
the Church. It isn't because we think we are under the Law that we practice
tithing, it is because we think the concept is a good one and provides us a
practical baseline for our support of the Church.
Three concepts:
1. God is the owner of everything. He has placed certain things in my hands and
expects me to be a good steward of those things.
2. We remember how practical the 10% approach was in the O.T.
3. Therefore, we ask all our members and suggest that all others make tithing
their baseline approach to giving, that the work of the local church be
properly financed.
Since we are tithing as stewards, we have considerable leeway in what we
include as "gain." Each giver is free to decide for herself exactly what to base the 10% on. It isn't Law, it is a practical application of an O.T. concept.
I am a youth pastor at a church where 1.4 % of
the people tithe 10 % (this is below the national average which I believe is
around the 2% mark).
A few months ago students were complaining that we were out of space (we are)
and that we need to build a new youth center (we should). I openly shared with
them that the church would love to, unfortunately, we
were not able to meet our current budget, much less support a building
campaign.
Upon hearing this a student remarked, "Oh my
gosh, my parents give SO MUCH to this church. They give, like, $200 a
month." (I would be very surprised if this girl was able to live in her
$900,000 home if her parents were only making $24,000 a year.
I want to stand in front of the congregation and explain that a tithe is 10%.
The rest of my staff wants to encourage the congregation to increase their
giving by "units." (Meaning if they give $200 a month, consider
raising that to $300 and keep raising it until you eventually reach a full
tithe).
Am I being too pushy? Is the rest of my staff right in helping the congregation
"ease into tithing"?
Since we are tithing as stewards, we
have considerable leeway in what we include as "gain." Each giver is
free to decide for herself exactly what to base the
10% on. It isn't Law, it is a practical application of
an O.T. concept.
I have never heard a preacher say this before. In this way, the 10% principle
can be upheld and supported from Scripture without the brow-beating of an
indistinct metric to which one attaches the percentage. One can give freely
above this base without wondering if they are meeting someone's opinion about
"the true 10%."
Thanks.
Diane Muir said...
Lots of thoughts about this. Lots of good thoughts. It's interesting how much we react
when people - even the church - starts asking us to open our pockets. We can
find every reason in the world to not give to the local church: they're not
good stewards, we already give to parachurch organizations, we live in
different regions, etc.
But, I think the bigger issue is that if everyone were giving as God calls them
personally - the local church would never have to remind anyone to give a 10th.
And we wouldn't spend time defining what that is exactly.
In going through the One-Year Bible, I just reread the passage in Exodus where
the people gave to the building of the Tabernacle. They gave and gave until
Moses had to tell them to stop giving! How many pastors out there have EVER had
to stop the giving?
People will give when God stirs them to give - and until then, as every good
pastor knows - it's like pulling teeth.
It's killing me, because it's been so long since I heard this - and I can't
cite the source ... but, studies were done that showed how the generations give
differently. The bit of giving to a cause, rather than a building or a general
fund is something that those in younger generations than me are more apt to do.
The older generation than myself - is all about
supporting an institution. Now ... I am going to have to go looking for this
study - it was pretty thought-provoking for pastors that wanted to reach an
entire church community. You can't market the church to varying age groups in
the same manner. They will all give differently and they all need to be given
the opportunity to give.
Aaron said...
In the OT if I recall correctly God got a little
ticked off at those who didn't tithe because they were mad at the leaders. So
in response to those who say they will only give if the churches are
responsible for it ...ehhhh I don't know.
Secondly I don't care if you give 10% or 90% if your heart isn't in it. I think
it's a personal thing. WOuld I love for all of my
church to give 10% YES!!! But I'd rather them give it all and then work out the
details ... maybe.
What should the pastors do in regards to this Dr. Drury?
Thinking in
Ohio said...
I don't believe I've ever approached an issue
with my mind so "set" only to have it stretched after reading so many
insightful responses. I think this issue may be greyer than I had assumed.
Two thoughts:
1) The push away from tithing by many evangelicals comes from a drive to throw
off "legalism" and "man-made traditions" of the past. In
reality the Protestant-Evangelical church has undergone it's
own "Reformation" with "sola-scriptura" as its motto in the
past 50 years. One reason tithing is falling at the wayside is because it is
not "explicitly" taught in the NT.
2) The push away from 10% is fueled by human greed, the love of possessions,
etc. etc. It's a dying shame that so many American "christians"
who are by far the richest men and women in all of world history cannot deny
themselves enough to give 10% of their income to God's Kingdom.
PS--Excellent commentary on our doctrine of the church being unorthodox because
we've become so attuned to the "universal" church as opposed to the
local church. We forget how small the world was and how limited transportation
had to be in NT times. For the vast majority of Christians throughout time the
local church/community was the priority. There are some voices today who dismiss our call to the local church by identifying
themselves with the "universal" church. But how can you belong to the
larger without joining with the smaller?
You stated that this is an area where pastors and
laymen are totally on different tracks--you are RIGHT ON TARGET with that
comment. Our pastor pretends everyone tithes 10% to the local church even when
we have clear evidence that this is untrue on the board. He seems to cover his
ears and keep insisting that the local church is clothes while it is poor and
naked when it comes to tithing. I fear that the truth of the matter is he wants
all the older people to keep tithing 'as if everyone else is tithing" even
though he knows most younger members "spread their tithe around" as
you say many evangelicals do.
The horse is out of the barn and it isn't going back in. I wonder if we
are in for an outright competition betweeen the para-church organizations and the local church with the
both ending their "truce" they;ve
had over the recent years.?
I was hoping that at least one blogger would pick up on my earlier comment and add some
input to that, but it seems that everyone involved in this dialogue is quite
fixated on the percentage giving model rather than the sharing and distribution
model. Perhaps a fuller exposition of Biblical tithing is in order. The article
at the following link will at least prompt the honest Bible student to evaluate
contemporary tithing teaching and practice.
http://bible-truths.com/tithing.html
Thinking in
Ohio said...
I went back and read your original post Dean, and
like many of the other responses, I believe you raise a very good point; one
I've never really considered. I grew up in an old-fashioned holiness church
where we were taught to give 10% to the local church as an act of faith in
God...
I think you are demanding that we not "cut and paste" what we like
from NT principles and teach what is convenient or expedient for the local
church alone. I have several elderly widows in my church living off $800 a
month of social security and I don't push tithing on them.
Mark Metcalfe made me think more deeply about "gross" tithing too,
and I want to thank you for that.
Wayne said...
The analysis of tithes and offerings given in the
book Beyond Tithes and Offerings is, in my opinion, relatively complete.
The main premise is "spirit led giving;" however, they are not easy
on the reader at all and do not use that as a cop out. Check out the book at
Amazon. Beyond
Tithes and Offerings
No -- I'm not the author nor do I know them -- I just liked their perspective.
It's funny to me, how uncomfortable we can get and how defensive we can become
on this topic though. Personally, I find God pushing me beyond the 10% arena --
not there yet, but working on it.
Current attitudes about tithing may simply
reflect the spirit of the day. I think that tithing may come down to an issue
of trust, ultimately. I struggled with tithing for a long time, and when I
settled it in my mind I paid on the gross-which wasn't much, I went for about
15 years on an average income of 13k. I was blessed to have for a mentor and
man who had been orphaned as a child, and had learned to trust God. He also was
a 20% giver, with ambitions to go to 30%. I remember when my 14 year old car
died, and after two weeks of being without a car I sought God and said, "I
am going to trust you, whether you provide for me or not." He did. But the
important thing was that I passed a test I had failed many times. Arguments
about NT vs. OT may be sincere, but are often just an excuse not to tithe.
I preach a tithe equals 10% and it belongs to the
local church... HOWEVER, I am wise enough to know that my people only obey
about 25% of the rest of the Bible's teaching..so why would tithing be any different? ?
So, like everything else I preach--I encourage them to "move toward"
full obedience.
Elliott Innes said...
Wow Keith, you think you hit a nerve here? I will
admit, I have not spent a great amount of time studying the issue of tithing in
the Bible, but I do know the advantages of it.
When my wife and I married, I went to a financial advisor and presented my
income, expenses and desire to tithe 10% first to my local church. He nearly
laughed me out of his office. But after realizing I was serious advised,
"With your income, why not start at 5%."
The next year we struggled. Not living on the streets struggled, but let's just
say, we ate mac and cheese A LOT! After conferring
with some spiritual heavyweights I happened to meet up with, I came home and
mentioned I would like to begin to tithe 10%. Now, as with most people my age,
I faltered and twisted a bit but eventually came to a point where I was giving
a tenth, and guess what? We still ate a lot of mac
and cheese, AND God asked us to start giving more offerings above and beyond.
Magically though, our needs were always met, there was always mac and cheese in the cupboards, much to the chagrin of my
financial advisor.
Anyway, I say all this to simply point out what missions
orgs have been saying for years, "A commitment made on faith is honored by
God." That's what a tithe is, a commitment made on faith, saying,
"I'm not sure where the money will come from, but I will give in faith
that God will provide." And to take it a step further: If God doesn't
provide the mac and cheese this month... who cares? We've given our mite and there is NOTHING better
we could have done with our green, not even buying food!
Finally, I do have to wonder, when all this is said and done: I am a
missionary. I depend on people's support to do the work I believe I have been
led by Christ to do. I wonder what would happen if my supporters, some of whom
include our support as part of their "tithe", began giving 10% first
to the church. Would they still have money left to support the work of
missions? If God's people suddenly were bit by an obedience bug, would our
support level drop? Or maybe, just maybe, would God's people see that tithing
is truly a form of worship and desire to bless the Lord and others more, and in
turn we would see even more support poured into missions?
I'm just sayin...
tg said...
Great post.
For the last two years, I worked for an organization dedicated to teaching a
Christian perspective on stewardship and I think there is booming interest in
the subject. We had (mostly lay people) paying a lot of money to come to one
week training classes on biblical stewardship.
One of the things our leader taught was that tithing was an old
testament concept that you could subscribe to, but that was letting you
off easy. He instead held himself up to, and called others to consider the
verse that says we should give according to how God has prospered us, and he
used total networth to measure that. I thought that
was a unique way of looking at it.
Many churches now have a pastor of stewardship and in some ways that serves the
function a development officer would play. The stewardship pastors know that if
they are effective in teaching people God's word on how to manage their
finances and teaching them a biblical perspective on money then people will
have the money to share with the church. I am not saying they are being self
serving, just making the comment that with a stewardship pastor one may not
need a development officer.
I am a lay person. I used to tithe because I
thought God demanded 10% (or more) from me as many above have suggested. BUT
once I became a student of the word I discovered that tithing is unsupported Scripturally and is a boondoggle promoted by the
professional class of ministers to support their empires and careers. These
ministers do not take seriously the values of distributing funds to the poor,
etc. that the Bible commands but call us laymen to “sacrificial giving beyond
the tithe” only to gather all the money into their own local church. My
church is selfish—they get as much money as they can then spend it all on
themselves. Why should my pastor not expect me to do likewise????
A storehouse is not for storing –it is for distributing!
David Drury said...
Dean, in specific response to your question--at
our church we have designed a 4-part method for giving.
The first is the tithe, which we communicate as 10% (as I said earlier--our
people might not follow that, perhaps only 25% at most do--but that's what we
communicate).
The other 3 ways to give are as follows:
2) Global Outreach - giving to enable church multiplication and mission around
the globe
3) Future Fund - giving to enable our church to build and relocate as we
plan...
4) Benevolent - giving to help the poor locally.
This 4th fund is what you're tlaking about, but we
don't limit it to just those inside the church. We give to this fund as a
church whever we take communion together--as we are
this Sunday. This helps us fulfill our command to help those in need and not
"gorge ourselves" materially while those in our fellowship are in
need. Make sense? In light of 1 Cor 11 I think it's a
good practice.
BTW = so far this year people are giving to that fund 3 or 4 times more than
last year, even as other funds are down.
JustKara said...
David.Drury: My church
has a similar "four fund" approach (though with different names).
Here is my questions for you: how do the percentages
break down in your church between the funds? In my church they are:
1)LOCAL--74%
2)GLOBAL--4%
3)CAPITAL CAMPAIGN--20%
4)CARING--2%
Is that a healthy distribution? What are your figures? I am embarassed
at spending 94% "on ourselves" in some ways--but I'm wondering how
they compare to other churches.
I find it interesting that the major focii of these posts is on the obligation and
"percentage of what" rather than the blessings and promises of God
that come along with the command to tithe. God states,
"Test me in this and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven
and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."
(Malachi 3:10.
Regarding gross or net, the Word says to tithe on your increase - in modern
civilization that means wages, honorariums, and royalties. Why cut such fine
hairs when the blessing is promised?
Jesus affirms tithing in Matthew 23:23-24. After outlining the diligence of the
Pharisees to tithe and yet reject justice, mercy, and faithfulness, he says
that they should practice the latter without neglecting the former. In other
words, do both.
In response to caring for others, our local church puts 10% of all income into
a missions fund. This is used for both home and
foreign missions.
Those who believe they cannot tithe due to low income, again, the focus is on the wrong side of the coin. Flip it over and consider
the blessings.
Final thought: we just viewed the DVD series by Robert Morris entitled,
"The Blessed Life." It is the best biblical teaching I have ever
considered on giving. I encourage any and all to get it. He also has a book by
the same title. The series addresses every thought raised here on this
discussion!
Tim Hawk
It seems to me that there are basically two types
of responses here:
1)Those absorbed with quibbling about percentages of
this and that, gross and net, OT or NT, and
2) Those who climb into pulpits to preach sermons on the blessings of tithing.
As a student I'd like to hear an authentic discussion of Coach D's main
points--do laymen see "tithing" like he says they do or not?
*Do laymen consider a tithe "giving" and not automatically 10%?
*Do laymen believe the Bible doesn't really require it?
*Do they (we) see giving tithe beyond the local church as OK?
*Do laymen expect to be thanked more by their local church like parachurch
organizations do?
From my reading of Coach's article this is what he claims--as a student I don't
know if it is true or not. I can tell you what students think--but not laymen
in the churches. I've read plenty of mini-sermons and discussion on
tithing--but I still don't know if what he says about laymen is true or not.
That's what I'd like to see here--are any of these things tru
of the laymen in your church?
Senior-itus,
here's how it plays out in my church.
1)Yes, they considered the tithe "giving".
Example: a board member was talking about how hard it was to "tithe"
but they do it. To best of my calculations, she gives less than 2%.
2)They either don't see it as Biblical or they don't
conduct their lives based on the Bible. I think it is the latter. I think the
average evangelical or whatever label we're using now bases his or her life on
what Warren/Lucado/Olsteen/pick your favorite
Christian celebrity leader says the Bible says versus finding it for themselves. And because these guys, while solid men and
women, cannot touch on EVERY subject, tithing gets lost.
3)It depends. It's done outside the church for many
reasons. It's a way of casting your vote against the current leadership. Or
they don't have a good view on ecclesiology (a common evangelical malady).
4)Yes, which is why they quit serving or giving. It's
not so much a thank you note they want as the notoriety or credit for doing it.
It appears that many of them did not read Rick Warren's best first line -
"It's not about you."
But all this negativity aside, it's still God's church and they are still God's
people and we all stand in the need of grace. And they are some out there who
get it.
Many of us who are pastors are reluctant to
answer your questions senioritus... at least over our
names... but here is what I'd say for my people.
1. Yes, but many older folk still agree with us pastors that tithe =10% and to
be quite honest I hope they never read this article ;-)
2. Some still believe the Bible requires 10% or more, but not the younger ones,
or if they believe it they
"fall short" of this ideal.
3. Yes, even my LBA members give part of their tithe beyond the local curch--though many have found ways to channel tithe THROUGH
the local church (missions, mission teams they go on themsleves),
4. I can't answer the fourth one--I've really never even thought about the
"competition" of gratitude from parachurch organizations--I need to
think about this and ask some laity in my church about it.
By the way--we have an opening coming up in our church senioritus,
I hope you apply! Thanks for posting!
Larry said...
Forty-one comments on
tithing ... and counting!?
Sheesh ... you better never write about sex ...
;-)
Kara, I guess I shoould
answer your "test questions" too..
For our church it is:
1)LOCAL--87%
2)GLOBAL--7%
3)BUILDING--5%
4)CARING--1%
However the "local" includes all the staff who really do
"caring" lots of the time so the cash numbers don't tell the whole
picture. Of the "after overhead cash" (after salaries and mortgage
payments) it looks like this here--I just figured it:
1)LOCAL--63%
2)GLOBAL--22%
3)BUILDING--(overhead)
4)CARING--15%
somewhat better...
I had my mind pretty well made up on tithing
until I read all these responses.... now I need to clear my head! It isn;t as simple as I have thought.
Ed V
David Drury said...
JustKara:
I see what you're getting at. Some are less than enthused about our
"numerical quibbling" but I suspect they are just bored with details.
In the ministry we often do "climb into the pulpit to preach on the
blessings of tithing" and then "walk into the office to crunch the
numbers" on monday.
Both/and.
I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I can give you ball-parks:
1)LOCAL--60%ish
2)GLOBAL--15% (our church has a good thing going here - and a full time staff
member on global stuff)
3)FUTURE FACILITIES--15%ish
4)CARE--2% or less I'm figuring
So, your hunch is likely right--we don't give a ton of money as a percentage to
local needs of the poor.
But I'll counter that those other needs are not exactly wasting money on liquor
and gambling. They are good things to do too.
I finally got around to reading this on Saturday
and I have nothing to add... but if Drury's goal was to provoke us to think
about tithing he achieved it well. My head is swirling with things and I need
to take some time to sort these thoughts out.
Heidi said...
I pondered about this all week, and have only sat
down now to read others comments.
Bethany/Sussex seems to be in the birth stages of revival. Tuesdays
chapel started at the usual 10am but didn't really get over until 2pm.
The hope was that this would carry over into the local church. To some extent
it did … During worship thi morning God said to me
"I want to open up the heavens." I read Malachi 3:6-18:
6
"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not
destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from
my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to
you," says the LORD Almighty.
"But you ask, 'How are we to return?'
8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of
you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse,
that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD
Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and
pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will
prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not
cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations
will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD
Almighty.
13 "You have said harsh things against me," says the LORD.
"Yet you ask, 'What have we said against you?'
14 "You have said, 'It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by
carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the LORD
Almighty? 15 But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers
prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.' "
16 Then those who feared the LORD talked with each other, and the LORD listened
and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those
who feared the LORD and honored his name.
17 "They will be mine," says the LORD Almighty,
"in the day when I make up my treasured possession. [a] I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his
son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the
righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.
(NIV)
When I think of revival I automatically think of the two pillars (2 Chronicles
7 and Jeremiah 29), but God seemed to be saying we're forgetting something.
The sermon was titled "A Person and Their Pocketbook" but I found
that very little was said about tithe, in fact I don't think the term was used.
There was a testimony afterwards given that concerned completely trusting God
for finances and about revival. But again nothing about
tithing.
Thank-you for writing on this subject, because until people
grasp what a tithe really is, God can't work. We must allow him to be
LORD of everything.
All I know is that I've had envelops since the time I was 13 or 14 and have
done my best to give God 10%- even during my six months in
So here's a question, what do students and missionaries do? They belong (or
should) to a local church at home- does their tithe go to that church or the
one they attend on Sunday mornings?
daniel said...
I have a lot of trouble with this issue. In a
global economy it makes sense that the laymen are thinking in terms of a global
church. As
In the face of starvation and depravation, how can I even justify my church's
air conditioning system? In the face of Jesus's
homelessness, how can I justify my church's building project? I know God is big
enough to supply all needs and that He will use my simple acts of faith and
bless them to grow. But, how do I justify giving my time, talents and resources
to those who have made it emminently clear that they
neither need nor appreciate it? Is God calling me away from the local church?
Why do I feel I am wasting my time there?
It breaks my heart to put these things in writing.