Responses to “My students
plan to change your church”
Seems to be that numbers 1 and 5 go hand-in-hand.
There is never greater spiritual depth without a greater knowledge and
understanding of the text. I think I'd change the improving their
"theology" to knowing what their Bible really says. Knowing the text
and knowing theology are two very different things for most people. If I were
picking, I'd take knowing the text over knowing the theology. I belive that knowing theology is what has caused the
"loss of unity" through the years between denominations and within
the holiness ranks.
Number 4 scares me! Greater acceptance and tolerance.
Get rid of the saved/lost mentality and select the us/them,
whew! Less divide between religious and secular.
If you have perfect love, none of numbers 1-6 really ever seem to be a problem.
At least that is what I've experienced/seen from the ones who really know God
deeply.
I find it truly interesting that the lack of power or the move of God was a
deficiency! Jesus said once He departed, his disciples would do exploits.
If I were doing an analysis of the churches and christian colleges, I would identify the following as
the greatest deficiency: loss of purpose! It appears that we have taught
ourselves and our children not to expect anything of God!
And, one last thought, did you notice that everything noted was "of the
flesh"?
James Petticrew said...
I must say I am disappointed they are not more
radical,
JohnLDrury said...
I find it interesting (though not surprising)
that "change worship style" has such a little showing. I think it is
interesting because many folks might expect it to score high. Goes to show that worship styles and worship wars have slipped off
the radar of the current generation of ministerial students. My
question: will they get sucked into them when they "get out"???
The AJ Thomas said...
Sounds good to me. I envision
the next version of the wesleyan
church being deeping in it's thought and practive and more concerned about the poor and needy. I
think the whole tolerance and acceptance thing is probably not a shift towards
winking at sin but being willing to eat with sinners.
Sniper said...
anonymous--your view
of theology is rather limited. To see "knowledge of the Biblical
text" as something outside of "knowing theology" is a little far
fetched in my opinion. The theology most of my sub-group (18-25) is refering to is the core, not the fringe. It's about being
unified in the Trinity, in the personhood/divine nature of Christ, in the
ecclesiastical purpose of having Church in the first place. It's not about
splitting hairs over premillianialism, creationism,
and perhaps even entire sanctification.
John, I think the reason why you do not see as much about worship style is
because this group is turned off by the christian-worship
"scene" where consumerism takes precedence over producing worship.
I'm responsible for at least three of the "stop the Christian
sub-culture" category. Aj Thomas hit it in the
head.
David Drury said...
Interesting anecdotal response
from your class.
I couldn't help but wonder while reading it if this was in some ways less of a
vision for the future of the church and more of a reaction to the kinds of
youth ministries or large churches many of your students were likely raised up
in.
Ouch... :-(
I said that out loud didn't I?... a big sorry to all
of my friends and family in the world who are youth pastors.
I also thought to myself: how much of this am I doing in my church? I think I
align with your student's vision for change, but I wonder how much of my time
is spent spinning the flywheel of the previous vision without re-missionalizing what we're all about.
-David Drury
Also a product of big church youth ministries
These are great responses from the kids. Next,
I'd like to ask them to dream up creative ways to actively pursue these things.
We tend to get so caught up in the juggernaut of the religious mundane, and are
so afraid of pushing the envelope, that we settle for something so much less.
History has taught us that when we are young and creative ... and a bit naive ...
we can accomplish so much. I get excited when I see a group of young people
setting high goals and exciting dreams before themselves. We should spend more
time encouraging them to act on these dreams and providing the support they
need to revolutionize our churches. But, instead, we criticize and fear the
change that might happen.
If we enveloped the new pastors, youth leaders, etc. coming out of seminary in
support, can you imagine what might happen and how far they would go? What
creative things could happen next?
I love that you are able to interact with them before they get caught up in the
day-to-day drudgery of running a program. This has to be exciting to see and
encourage. The other will come all too soon for them.
pk said...
I had some similar thoughts to Dave Drury. My
first inclination was to see the desire for more depth and service as a
reaction to the seeker-sensitive, personal holiness emphasis of the
But I'd stand in line with my peers (though they are a couple years younger
than me) and say that I whole-heartedly agree. I would love to see the church
move forward in making disciples (depth) and not just consenters. And that the
fruit of said effort would be the church alive and active in its communities
and in our world with self-giving service and love.
Brian La Croix
said...
I'm all for some of these, particularly 1 and 2.
But my "caution flag" goes up at number 4, as I'm sure is the case
for a number of people who read this piece.
We are to be loving to all, whether or not we agree with them, and whether or
not they are believers and followers of Jesus.
However, Scripture is very clear that someone is either saved or they are not
(1 John 5:11-12). We may not be able to look at someone and determine their
salvation, but that does not mean the distinction does not exist at all.
Also, the original definition of tolerance does not mean "embracing"
or "celebrating" things that are clearly sinful.
Whether this was what the respondents meant is up for grabs, since the original
article doesn't state it.
There are people I love who are involved in sinful activities, including those
that are most thought of when discussing "tolerance." I do not
celebrate or embrace their lifestyle. I tolerate it. And
them.
It's also important to realize that while Jesus was very tolerant of PEOPLE,
but not tolerant of IDEAS or BELIEFS that ran contrary to his. He was very
exclusive in his claims to truth and holiness.
(Please forgive the caps - they are meant for emphasis, not yelling!)
Brian La Croix
Kurt A Beard said...
Are we going to see a shift away from trained
pastors to lay-pastors?
It seems the top responses don’t require much specific ministerial training. It
doesn’t take a
I also find it disconcerting that greater spiritual growth, which includes more
meat, is separate from better theology. I wonder how we expect to grow apart
from understanding God’s Word, or will we find our protein elsewhere. Will we
(continue to) supplement our diet with enough other ‘vitamins’ that we can grow
apart from red meat?
-Kurt
http://delayedepiphany.blogspot.com/
Ryan Schmitz said...
Students can "want to" change churches
all they want, but are churches going to be open to these changes? There are
scores of pastoral students graduating each year from my alma mater, and they are
very zealous about ministry. The problem is many of them will have their
bubbles burst by the usual suspects on the "inside".
Our next class of ministry majors should not only feel empowered, but really
needs to be empowered. They are going to be a little raw, but maybe that is
what the church needs.
tricia said...
I am pleased to see more depth at the top of the
list - that would be my number one choice and I am in an older generation than
your students.
For laughs, and to answer one of your questions, when I was taking CM classes
at IWU I wanted to see the church become more socialist as I thought the book
of Acts modeled. Now I think the goal of genuine community replaces my old
desire to see the church more socialist.
Sniper said...
I am hearing the worrisome tone of some that are fearing the trend of wanting to get rid of a Christian
sub culture and create less of a divine between what is secular and what is
"Christian." I am one of these proponents.
What I am proposing is nothing close to ending a separation between what is
holy and what is not. In fact, ending the Christian subculture would actually
strengthen the EK-lessia by not prepackinging
what already exists in the world. The Christian subculture takes a
"secular" idea, recreates it (often times with lower quality because
we don't have the cash to compete) and slaps a cross on it for commericial appeal to Christians around the world. What I
am proposing is that we get rid of that kind of thinking. We stop trying to
compete like a bunch of consumers and start being the Church, transforming the
culture by being in it, rather than creating our own little bubbles of
commercialism.
This does not end the "secular/religious" world, it just shifts it to
allow the Church to be more like the Church, and less like MTV, Time, and yes,
Disney.
sarah said...
I keeep
seeing number 4 being attacked. my responce to the question was in that. I didnt mean that would should like yay
i doesnt matter what you
do. I'm going to be a youth pastor and i was
left out and forgotten and blantanty ignored by my
current and prevous youth pastor because i was not the "normal" teenager. I didnt look like everyone else, i
dressed differant, and was just differant.
I would attempt to help with a bunch of things and was always
wanting to be involved but i was always cast
aside because i wasn't in my youth pastors "favorates." I think that the church is that last place
someone should judge you from your outside apperance,
i understand if i walk down
the street with my lip rings and such i might get a
funny look or two (i actully
enjoy them most of the time) but with in the church i
sould be atleast accepted
not seen as some wierd freak they have to deal with.
I'd like to know how many students were surveyed.
It was interesting to note how conservative these students are.
Don Hill
Matt Guthrie said...
Interesting survey. I was in a
Growing Pastors seminar sponsored by our district today. Our speaker used the
Saddleback model and the baseball diamond to illustrate where he thinks we have
fallen short in TWC. Besides reversing the order of 1st & 2nd base (we do
maturity before membership), he says the church in general tends to stop at 2nd
base. 3rd base & home are about serving.
Now I know that many of these students may immediately reject anything that is
said because I am coming at it from a "shallow" church growth model
(Saddleback). My question is why are all the responses treated as separate and
distinct areas? Yes, you have to be able to identify labels for the purposes of
quantifying. But depth should proceed from serving and vice versa. Can you really
have depth without some sort of good theological understanding?
I think what the students are rebelling against is what we all rebelled against
when we began our ministerial training. We began to get a better vision of what
God really desired for us & from us. Unmet expectations are painful for
everyone.
I hope these kids are able to change my church. I look forward to working with
them. I just hope they never forget where they came from.
Scrammy said...
It is important to realize that the students did
not each sit down and pump out as many problems with the church as we have had
bad experiences with. In fact, it was very difficult to come up with the two
that was expected of us. As a group, we are not out to rebel and create an
extreme revolution for the sake of revolution.
We care about where the Church has been in terms of discipling
believers and reaching the lost and seek to ensure we hit all the points that
need to be hit in what the Church should look like today... possibly BEFORE
they are ever problems.
Bottom line, we were asked to come up with things to change and we couldn't
leave a blank answer. We may have gone out on a limb here and there but all of
the ideas can help us look at our ministies and say,
"perhaps there is some merit, how can I do better... just in case"
Looks to me like these students will be a welcome
addition to the church--I hope they are hard workers! I like their list--even
the "tolerance" one if they mean by it the acceptance of
"different people" (which the supportive list showed they must have
meant.)
Of course theyll learn not to use the "T"
word itself out here--we use the L word to mean the same thing: we LOVE people
of all kinds--a loving church flies better with today's Christians than a
"tolerant" church. But we mean the same thing I think.
Bryan Lloyd
said...
All of us come from different backgrounds and
different experiences. This gives us different opinions about where ministry
should build on itself. One might ask him/her self "Was it God's plan for
me to go through the experiences that I had?" Now, I come from the
Missionary Church Corporation, and I come with the belief that God gives us
choice, but I also believe that God designated each of us for special unique
purposes in the church. So maybe God intends for us to experience certain
aspects to make us the way we are, and then we become advocates of change for a
certain area.
Now, you will always find that different generations disagree on what should be
done; some call this "rebellion." Nevertheless, might I add that as
the generations are bringing in different ideas and strategies for the church,
the church is also changing as well? Just look at Sunday school vs. Morning
Worship Service. People used to come to church for Sunday school and then skip
the Morning Worship Service. Now the roles have been flipped. Consider Small
Groups vs. Big Groups. Or how about the worship argument?
The strategies and personality of the church has been changing for centuries.
If you took a church from the 1700's and put a present day congregation in it,
I am not sure that it would last very long.
Everything that we (incoming ministry students) try and change is not going to
succeed. That is a guaranteed given. We will fail, but at least we will fail
trying (I'm not saying that the present ministry staffs are not trying).
However, I hope we do not go into churches and change everything. Furthermore,
I hope we possess the patience and diligence to find what actually needs to
change.
I am not saying that the core of the church should change. Understand, that I
am not advocating that we change the core of the church or Christianity, but I
am advocating the change for how we remain true to this core.
Let me also add that some of the things the church is doing today are going
pretty well. For those programs & strategies, let us leave them alone.
Personally, I would like to see better theology in the church. Right now, I am
doing a practicum at a church in
While leading the church to a greater spiritual
depth is a very reasonable and noble goal, I find their solutions to be the
typical evangelical response. Maybe these solutions are also shallow and that’s
why God’s people never have any spiritual depth. While not diminishing the
power of God’s Word and the study of Scripture, it seems that we elevate The
Word above having a vital relationship with the Living God and walking by the
power of the Holy Spirit. One of my favorite scriptures is in Acts 3. Peter in
response to the crippled beggar was: “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I
have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.” Where did this
spiritual depth come from?
Larry said...
The list pretty well matches the concerns I had
when I was about 25.
I admit that my concerns about church are different now. I wonder if that's because(1)I'm older and (2) I'm no longer in the pastorate.
Hmm.
strange how this
could be an old boomer's list (like myself).
Perhaps the young sprouts should know that many older generation pastors are
attempting these very things. We live in a very desparate
time, a very selfish time -- right within the church. It takes lots of
patience, faithfulness and prayer to turn a church around. Most of all it takes
lots of modeling; this is where a lot of idealism braks
down. I applaud their vision, but now is the time for them to be asking the
Lord to prepare them for the long road ahead.
Tom Bird
Ken DePeal said...
Keith,
I would think you'll need a significant amount of church planters to emerge
from your student group.
My experience in an existing, well established church is that it's easier to
create these from the ground up than to transform a church that's already been
around awhile. It can happen, but pastors need to stick around awhile, a lot
longer than many pastors are willing to stay.
So unless they're willing to commit to a church for awhile, they should give up
on their list and do the status quo. If, however, they really believe in their
ideology, then when they graduate and get their first job they should ditch the
moving boxes and settle in for some significant ministry opportunity.
Ken DePeal
Lead Pastor @ Allendale Wesleyan for six years, just signed on for four more
derek bethay said...
Not sure how I would have responded to this
question 10 years ago as a senior who was months away from his first job but
with almost 10 years of full time ministry under my belt my response today
would be this... I want to do something to help the church move away from
operating from within the business model paradigm. Christianity is not a
business.