Other "Thinking Drafts" and writing by Keith Drury -- http://www.indwes.edu/tuesday .

RESPONSES to..."Evangelical Lying" column

From: "James J Lake" lakeaje@neta.com
It sounds to me like a lot more of us Pastor types need to join the promise keepers and fall on our faces in repentance before a holy God and ask Him to forgive us for our sin.(Lying is just the tip of the evangelical iceberg) God be merciful to me a sinner ----- Jim---

From: kimbrokj@horizontel.com (Kimbrough, Kevin)
The truth behind the exaggerated numbers are simple but sad. When God is at work, lives are changed and spiritual growth is occurring. If God were not changing lives through the Promise Keepers organization such a large mass of men would not have gathered in Washington D.C. Therefore it is assumed that numbers will increase when miracles are happening. As a result a large crowd being reported suggests that God is at work at our church or our youth group. Pride reports numbers, suggesting God's work, and waits to hear the numbers from other churches to compare others' openness to God. Miracles are not determined by the number of people that attend but by meeting the needs of others. Was the miracle that Jesus fed 5,000 men with two small fish and five barley loaves or that Jesus could meet peoples' needs when nobody thought it could be done. The miracle would have been just as impressive with only 100 men present because needs were being meet. We should not be impressed by numbers but by the awesomeness of God. --Kevin Kimbrough.

From: rogergreen@juno.com (Roger W Green)
I'd certainly agree that a lot of stretching the truth is covered or retitled. I wonder just how heavy and how soon God is going to judge. I am more and more into the need to confess the sins of the nation and the church - which also opens my eyes to some of my own covered or forgotten or unrealized sins, bringing even more confession. "And he being willing rather to justify himself..." -- there is where I too often find myself. It is much harder to see the post in my own eye than that toothpick in the other fellow's. -- Rog

From: Aliengrape@aol.com
I guess there is a lot of insecurity in the pulpit. This comes from boards that think it is the pastor's job to grow the church and this really increases the pressure. Maybe we should have those counting bars in the lobby like they do at football and baseball stadiums. You never hear those figures inflated but I'm sure the owners who are trying to draw bigger crowds are wondering how to do it. I wonder if they contacted any churches. -- Gary, in Fort Myers, Fl.

From: RJAJ4@aol.com
I'm not sure how complicated it is although it seems to have many legs, but carnality would have to be the source of such foolishness. Lying has a place according to Scriptures and it isn't heaven.

From: JoeWayWat@aol.com
The United States culture is "success oriented" to a distressing degree! This "success-orientation" long ago was properly and officially baptized by the church and given its rightful place among all our other very important things like sound systems, key boards, clear plastic pulpits, and "doctrines". (You know, the kind of things that you have to have in order for God to bless) It is declared over and over that "God does not want you to fail! He wants you to succeed!" Then we proceed to describe success the good ole American way. More of everything! Bigger then ever before! More expensive then someone else's'! Which is understandable since that is how the world defines success as well. (Enter from stage left speaker to announce the next "Leadership Seminar" for pastors, the topic will be, "How To Lead Your Church To Greater Growth!")
Pastors must not be seen by other pastors as unsuccessful. One must be able to look as good as the next pastor when it comes to statistics, for the simple reason that such will be interpreted "God is blessing others more then me!" Then what is one to do! He will not only look like a failure as a man (or woman), but he will be perceived as a spiritual failure as well. Such thinking sets the stage for a pastor who may be struggling with a deficient self-image, and a mis-directed sense of spirituality to begin rationalizing how he can make his statistics look as good as they can. His mind is fertile and ready for a wonderful wave of spiritual imagination to flow over him. Its amazing isn't it, how inventive one can be in this kind of situation, and how God gets the credit for it too!
In the final analysis, such creative reporting and image propagating is not the culture's fault, nor is it the church's fault for creating such a "sinful-friendly" atmosphere. Each individual is responsible for his own character.

From: SAINTSAM@aol.com
It doesn't get any more complex than Adam and Eve thinking their way were better than God's way. Things (truly) never change!

From: Brian R Fitch VIA flaplant@pcpros.net
I believe pastor's stretch the numbers for several reasons. Great importance is put on numbers, not only in our culture but also in the church. When we're regularly seeing various kinds of "top ten lists" you begin to get the impression that numbers equal success. We also cheat on numbers because of our own ego. We aren't secure enough in ourselves and in our standing with God so we try to inflate ourselves in the eyes of others. It's pitiful that we have bought into the world's values to the point that we look at others and ourselves through numerical eyes. When we can accept our fellow pastors and ourselves for whom we are instead of how many we have, a great victory will have been won for the Kingdom. --Pastor Brian Fitch

From: namewithheldat request
This is one of those areas that is especially difficult for me, as a layman, to address. I believe, quite simply, that to intentionally deceive someone is wrong. Whether it is done for monetary or political reasons or to look successful or just because others are doing it, it is still sin. Perhaps we should not be quite so surprised when we find fewer young people wanting to go into the ministry when this type of behavior is prevalent. It was not acceptable in the early church...it is not acceptable now.

From: SMcvey2285
What you failed to mention was the fact that all of you denominational guys are the ones putting pressure on us to report growth. Every month I am asked for attendance statistics, to be published in the district paper for the whole world to see. The amount of respect that we receive when we deal with our denominational leaders is often determined by our church size. And you have clubs for the "big" church pastors, that all of us insignificant pastors aren't supposed to know about. As a result most pastors wear their church attendance the same way we used to wear Calvin Klein jeans in high school. It's all about status and show. Why don't we evangelistically fire all of the bean counters and simply ask pastors if they are following the Call of God in their life, and if their church is in good spiritual health. After all the apostle Paul never began any of his epistles with the phrase, " I thank my God every time I remember you, because of increase in attendance of 20%, your 50 baptisms, and that you are now one of the ten largest churches in the denomination. The change would do us good. -Steve McVey

From: GENE SCHENCK
Perhaps the reasons for stretching the numbers are carnal pride and dishonesty.

From: mwilson
I agree with what you're saying -- with two qualifications:
1) Ushers need to learn how to count better. Our ushers said there were 125 at our late service last week. I am certain there were 180 to 200 at the service -- but I always take the ushers' word for it. The way I figure it, they must have counted during the first five minutes of the service, while people were still coming in. A lot of ushers don't see the count as very important -- therefore they won't go out of the way to make sure there's an adequate count. (We did some usher training this week to help solve the problem.)
2) Your remarks about this topic in the past has put me in bondage to some degree. For instance -- our average for the year so far is 411 -- but our attendance for last month was in the 380's. (perhaps usher miscounting had something to do with it). When somebody asks what we're running in attendance -- I usually say "around 400". Is this fudging? I don't think so -- but I'm never quite sure. --Mark O. Wilson

From: marktina@juno.com (Mark E Reed)
You didn't mention that the initial problems of Dr. Lyons were generated by his wife's discovery that he co-owned a lovely home with a former convicted embezzler and now member of his church. His wife somehow got the idea that he might be romantically interested in this other woman, just from the fact that he had given her a luxury car, and secretly owned this house with her. So, wifey got some petrol and christened the new home. When the fire Dept. arrived, she told them why she had done it. All this brought some rather unwelcome scrutiny the good reverend's way. Well let's keep counting noses for Jesus so that no matter how corrupt and morally bankrupt the people of the church become we can statistically prove that as an organization we are on solid footing. -- Mark Reed

From: mattnheidi@juno.com
New England Christian Community had 6 people at the meeting tonight!! And we're glad for that!! HAHAHAHAHA! --Matt

From: gunsalur@wesleyan.org
That is why I would always just answer the question, "How big is your church?" with the straight report of the average number I wrote on my District report. . . 55 if your wondering ;-) of course that assumed I was honest on the dist. report. Which I was. I think the lying thing is mainly ego need. But what's new. --russ

From: Mullecg@aol.com
My best one from the past. A pastor the first of each quarter took Sunday School materials (one page leaflets) for the entire quarter to a local nursing home, He counted every resident in his church's Sunday School class, even though no one ever went to teach the lessons once a week. He just delivered materials. One visit is thus worth 13 counts. If he had been better organized and had a string of nursing home, he could have had the first Sunday School in the denomination to average 5,000 and hit the lecture circuit big time. -- Marlin Mull

So what do you think?

To contribute to the thinking on this issue e-mail your response to Tuesday@indwes.edu