"Thinking Drafts" and writing by Keith Drury -- http://www.indwes.edu/tuesday .

RESPONSES to "Church Fight" column

The column outlined five stages of a Church Fight asking readers what advice they would give to ministerial students to avoid getting burned in such a raging fire.

YOUR ADVICE:

From: Pastor Charles Kitner
Perhaps this is why people point fingers toward the church and say they are a bunch of "hypocrites". The Bible says that people should know that we are people that belong to Christ by or LOVE one for another not in fighting with our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

From: "Russell K. Stuever"
The best way to avoid this problem as a pastor is to provide an open atmosphere in which problems and differences can be discussed. -- Russell K. Stuever

From: Mcrail@aol.com
You hit our church at a timely juncture! I hope your next column will tell how to recover and heal from the brink of stage 4 (at least)--I am a lay leader in a Free Methodist Church. I'm much in prayer, and the situation is exploding around me. Help! -- -- Madelyn Crail

From: WPrise@aol.com
It seems to me that young pastors need to decide what the non-negotiable issues in their ministry will be. The things that they are willing to " die " for and stick to these with love and consideration to all concerned. -- W. Dirk Prise

From: RickS669 RickS669@aol.com
Wow! How fortunate you have been to have experienced or seen the early stages of church fights !!! That may have been how it used to be, but I have a feeling that most church fights skip your steps one and two. It's seems American society is damaged so much that there is no time for explanation or persuasion. Our culture is so raw that the least amount of discomfort is excruciating and intolerable both in the church and out. The volatility one sees in the church is frightening. --Rick

From: "James J. Lake"
We've been there and done that. My wife says, make tents and be self-supporting so that you're not always worrying about losing your ministry over what color carpet they decide to put in the women's washroom. Being a Pastor is like being a soldier. It is possible to be hurt by both friendly and enemy fire on any given day.

From: "Ed Castledine"
I know there are more, but these six things come to mind: 1. Come with no agenda. No church looks forward to someone who is coming to "fix" them.
2. Listen, honestly listen to them, for at least a year. Find out who and where they are on their
journey. Especially for young and aggressive pastors, this is challenging. 3. Seek counsel, both from older clergy and from laity. Young folks will be surprised to learn what
some of the old saints have learned through the years. 4. Respect your congregation. Respect them as a group and as Individuals. This results in mutual
respect that results in them listening better to what you have to say. 5. Work diligently. Your congregation does and if you want their respect you must earn it.
6. Know that they do not expect perfection from you, sincerity and effort yes, but perfection, no. So, don't beat yourself up emotionally when you fall before them. They know, because they have all fallen too. -- Once again, Keith, you have set me to thinking. Only, this time it is also causing some time of self-examination. The part about "ruining a man"- What a terrible concept to consider, especially in the Church. Thanks, Ed Castledine

From: DwMikesell@aol.com
From the pastoral perspective, I would say we need to be careful about the things we are willing to fight for. There are some things that go to the very heart of what the church is about, and some things are just preferences. -- Dwight Mikesell

FROM: Don_Hardgrave@compuserve.com
1. I believe the first responsibility to avoid them rests with leadership. This does not mean we will always be successful, but "SO FAR AS IN YOU LIES be at peace with all men." SOME IDEAS THAT WILL HELP: 1. Understand the dynamics of leadership of a small church and don't violate the code without very good reason.
2. Build bridges of love and holiness in the context of a big vision--Mr. Wesley said that Methodism was raised up to reform the nation--big dreams attract big people.
3. As part of discipleship in the church, teach the philosophy of ministry and why you do what you do. Unify the church around the purpose. Keith, thanks for your good work. God bless you. Don Hardgrave Australia

From: Rod Pickett
There are several issues here (in no particular order):
THE ARROGANCE OF THE PARISHIONER. In [my own] tradition there tends to be an arrogance among the laity. Individuals believe that theology is a matter of faith, not education. Someone with a high-school education has little hesitation to argue the fine points of theology with a seminary-trained pastor. This is more than a distrust of education. In the mind of many lay people, education is irrelevant to theology. How can a pastor preach to someone who already has all the answers? How can a pastor lead if he has to obtain consensus first? THE ARROGANCE OF THE PASTOR There is a natural arrogance of youth that I experienced when I started my ministry too many years ago. There is an arrogance that comes from successfully completing a degree program. I can remember all the things I didn't know until I got in college, Bible school or seminary. But, by far, the greatest contributor to arrogance in the clergy is the glamorization of the "super pastor." He gets trotted out at denominational events. He travels all over the country telling "less-informed" pastors how he did it... Few of these hopeful strong leaders can tell the difference between a core issue and a peripheral dispute. They try to force their ideas, convictions and personal preferences on their congregations indiscriminately. They get so little positive reinforcement from their people and from denominational leaders that they can't afford to lose one battle. -- Rod

From: "Koontz, Dave"
Fortunately God anticipated the slow departure of the old man and put a couple of safeguards into the scriptures. First, we are to have a plurality of elders. If those men are chosen carefully (I Timothy 3 & Titus 1) and if the temptation to set the pastor apart as the sole leader is resisted, then the fight cannot get personal. The pastor has a unique and special position, but doctrine and other matters before the church must be the conviction of the church represented by the elders. No pastor should get hung out to dry by himself. Secondly, Matthew 28 provides very specific instructions on how to deal with disagreements and offenses. Unfortunately, few churches put either principle into practical action. Nothing outside of much prayer and the grace of God can hold any church together. It is extremely fragile, requiring the tender care of a diligent shepherd and yet the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Thanks for your thoughtful column. Dave Koontz

From: namewitheld@juno.com
I had a family in my last church who was masters at this. They would actually use those exact words . .. "Pastor, I just figured that since you were new here, it's possible that nobody had told you that the pastor is supposed to do this. I didn't want you to be embarrassed . . . you mean you *didn't* know? . . . gosh, I sure am glad I mentioned it to you." Some people are especially gifted at this. These fights almost always boil down to the issue of control, and that is usually over mundane things . . . praise choruses or hymns. I've never been very good at controlling the agenda of other people. But I am getting better at playing dumb . . . "Wow. I had no idea that the pastor was supposed to arrange nursery workers for Christmas Eve. Golly, I wish somebody had told me. Guess it's too late now." ;-)

From: Matt_Guthrie@ms1.ats.wilmore.ky.us (Matt Guthrie)
I've never been in situation like this as a pastor, but I've been part of a congregation that operates with regularity in this fashion. As a student preparing for the pastorate, my first response is we have to educate the congregation on how to deal with disagreements. From my previous church experience, failure to talk directly in stage one or two has been the breaking point. Better yet, active listening by both parties in these stages is probably more correct. In terms of preparing your students, have them read "Generation to Generation" by Friedman and "How Your Church Family Works" by Peter Steinke. The first text is used primarily as a marriage counseling text, but it also applies those concepts to the church family. The ability of the pastor to maintain a "non-anxious presence" is the key. As a student, I am still primarily a theorist, but I found the concepts I learned from these books invaluable in my two years as a student pastor in a church with a volatile history. -- Matt Guthrie

From: larry101@juno.com
You can only lose money if you have money invested. When the pastor doesn't feel the need to "win" there can be no fight. And few of these matters are worth fighting for. LW

From: "Melissa Hughes"
As the great, law enforcing, theologian, Barney Fife, said, "Nip it in the bud." If our Lord's church would begin practicing His principles of inter-personal relationships as found in His teachings (such as pre-emptying worship until things are made right with your brother) the forest fires of church conflict would be greatly reduced. Rather than openly and honestly confronting the problem we would rather sweep it under the rug---- all for the sake of "church unity". We would rather not offend an "offending" brother. -- Melissa Hughes

From: mkonkle@comteck.com (Mike & Matt Konkle)
It happened to the church I now pastor. There was a division over the former pastor. There were those who did all they could do to get him to leave. Even to the point of accusing him of moral infractions, which were proven untrue. To those who stood by him faithfully. Finally it got so bad he had to go. There was no resolving the issue by that time. When I came here the church was split, literally. One faction sat on one side and one sat on the other. It has taken almost 6 years to bring some form of unity -- and at what cost? How many souls were damaged beyond repair because someone disagreed over something that made no difference in the Kingdom at all. We lost a strong church person because she felt she could no longer worship in a place where people testified to one life style and lived another. God never authorized nor organized nor ordained a church fight/split. He said, " a new commandment do I give you, that you love one another as I have loved you. Love ye one another." Until the church can learn to accept and love it's own. It will never be able to love the world! Thanks, Mike Konkle

From: mosley
Just think, the church will get to do it again--with the next pastor. The problems I see in my work are so consistent with you're article. I would add that a congregation that doesn't deal with the layered pain of the past is almost guaranteed to repeat the cycle. In the secular world you take a drink and it goes away--for awhile. In the church, we scapegoat the perceived troublemaker (clergy or laity) and it goes away--for awhile. Give the congregation 18-24 months and the pattern begins again. I would suggest a lot less Hebrew and Greek and a lot more conflict management training (clergy and laity). Great article! -- Tony Mosley L.E.A.D. Consultants Columbus, Ohio

From: MWilson529@aol.com
I want to say as a pastor now in my 30's and pastoring my 4th church... I've been there. Early in my ministry, while pastoring my 2nd church, I found myself in a church that was dominated by one large family and run with an iron grip by the patron of the family. We locked horns more than once over church related issues. I eventually resigned early as I saw the writing on the wall -- spell:"You're toast!" As I look back I saw several mistakes that I made: (1.) I didn't break up a clear power block and deliver that authority back to God. I should have taken steps, but as a green pastor I didn't want to make waves. (2.) I didn't go over the head of my district superintendent, who's only advice to me as I struggled with these people problems, was "I'll pray for you." (3.) I should have gone to those people, as Jesus outlined in Matthew's Gospel. (4.) I should have preached on these issues rather than ignore them. (5.) I should have left earlier. (6.) Finally, I should have done my homework on the church. I discovered after I accepted the church, as I looked through the records of the church, that the church had split from another church because of the desire of this family to "be in charge." They had also had 20 pastors in 22 years of their history. The majority stayed only one year! There were red flags everywhere! I have learned valuable lessons, though, and feel that I have become a more seasoned soldier of Christ because of these experience. God bless! -- Mike

From: Rod Guptill
Many things come to mind but none as important as the words of the plaque on my wall that states " We must learn to move men through God by prayer alone". - Hudson Taylor. --Rod Guptill, Bogota, Colombia

From: "Eugene A. Glendenning Ph.D." velgene@fairfieldi.com
Keith you have presented an interesting question. I will share some quick thoughts. First I would change Stage one from Explain to Explore. When you try to explain, it fails to get at the real issues. The presenting problem or issue is generally not the real issue.

When a member comes and reports a disagreement with you don't be defensive. The opening remarks of the member will determine how to respond. If the opening statement contains the phase , "You don't understand", then the pastor may respond in the following way. Brother or Sister_____, I am glad you have come to talk with me. "Please help me to understand what your thoughts and feelings are about this issue." If the member wants to discuss the history of the church, listen as this will provide more information in uncovering the real issue. As he or she reviews the history of the church, be prepared to ask two questions, "How did you feel when that happened?" " What were your thoughts when it happened?" Watch that you don't accept statements that are thoughts when asking for feelings. These questions help keep the member focused on the issue.

Listening to history will help to see if this is an old fire that has been smoldering under the surface. If the member assumes the pastor doesn't understand it may suggest how the former pastor behaved. This is also a cue that this is an old issue. Never try to defend the former pastor. You don't know the former pastor's position. Defending him may cause this member to sit down or dig in. If the former pastor has talked with you about problems in the church, to defend the former pastor also places you at risk of violating his confidences placed in you. To defend the former pastor also may hook you into the issue. Don't promise to change something. Instead state that you will study the matter. If other members were named in the presentation ask the person if he or she would be willing to meet with that person to work toward a solution. Don't go to the other member and discuss member # 1's story. This rarely solves problems, but does waste your time running between two members. They Play the game, "See pastor run".

Some disagreements are really a result of difference in perceptions. Perceptions are best corrected when the key parties meet face to face. Hopefully you don't get to stage two. When the member switches from explanation to persuasion, explore with the member why it is important that you agree with him or her. Here be careful, because the member may answer using emotionally loaded words. These words may cause you to loose the natural position that is so necessary.

Don't launch your own persuasion campaign. You have stopped working for reconciliation and set the stage for the battle to WIN. Pastor you are called of God. Keep this fact before you. The church is the work of God and therefore the battle is God's. If you are able to persuade the member that your position is right, he/she may still not be in agreement, just surrendered to you. But he/she will sabotage your plan at a point and time you least expect.

Try to get both sides to focus on the main mission of the church. The issue will still have be worked through. I personally think if the issues get to stage 3 and 4 you are dealing with more than a disagreement but with deeper spiritual and social issues in the life of the parties. Many times in a group, adults try to work out unresolved siblings' issues of their family of origin. I could write more if had the time to reflect on this material. You have set an interesting stage for class discussion. God Bless-- Dr. G.

From: wilsonn@wesleyan.org
I would give young pastors the same advice I gave young couples preparing for marriage. "Pick your fights carefully." There are some things not worth bleeding for, there are other things worth dying for. Survival may depend on having the wisdom to know the difference. -- Norm.

So what do you think?

To contribute to the thinking on this issue e-mail your response to Tuesday@indwes.edu