RESPONSES
Wesleyans need to quit
sending daughters to the youth conventions
The
following responses are included without names and with any identifying
elements removed unless the writer specifically gave permission to use their
writing with their name attached (some spelling corrections made)
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Keith,
So
powerful and so true! While working with ________________, I once heard
her say, "We're giving all our best women ministers to other
denominations." In fact, I know two very gifted women, one of which
is _____________, and the other is _____________,, who
are being blocked by the Church. You are bold and I hope that the right
people read this column! You've
touched a chord, and I'll be praying for God's power to move aside the
obstacles keeping His daughter's from what He has designed them to
do. I once heard a woman minister say, "God is on the Warpath for
His daughters." Let's pray so.
--WOMEN IN
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EXCELLENT
ARTICLE! I am one of these women!
--WOMAN IN MINISTERIAL TRAINING
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Keith,
I just read the column you wrote today and I want
you to know how dead on I thought it was! Thanks for writing this
necessary article!
--PASTOR OF CHURCH PLANT
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Keith,
Hey – I appreciated your article regarding women in ministry. My wife and
I had a good chat about it. Being a youth pastor in my past ministry experience
– I always was so excited to see young women answer a call to ministry, but it
seemed like if they didn’t want to be a kid’s pastor or choir director then
they didn’t have many options. My mother is a pastor (without the title)
at __________________ and she has shaped my views of women and ministry.
It would be interesting to discuss how we can promote more mentoring and
ministry opportunities for women leaders. That being said – I would like
to be kept in the loop regarding ministry students(female
and male) :) who would be great fits within ________(OUR CHURCH
HERE________ – for internships or future
staff.... So I am thinking about trying to hang at IWU sometime this spring and
try to connect with you and maybe a student or two.
PASTOR,
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Amen my friend! Thanks for taking the big
stand. You made me LOL with the Taco Bell
comment...
--MISSIONARY
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Keith,
Powerful words. One must work for years to gain sufficient credibility
(chips) to be heard. And when one has accumulated those chips, she must
carefully choose where to use them. You have picked a good battleground
for our church. The issue is not a no-brainer (like opposing gay
marriage) or a politicized issue (Bush in
--COLLEGE
PROFESSOR
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Personally,
I will commit to pray specifically that God will use Keith’s intervention to
open closed minds, and melt hard hearts, in order to open our church up to
God’s working through Holy Spirit anointed women. Beyond that, this
culture seems to me to be increasingly pernicious towards women in a multitude
of ways. How wonderful it would be for a church built on a calling to
Christian holiness to truly side with those who pay the highest price for our
culture’s voracious appetite for personal pleasure, and for success counted in
material and political terms.
WESLEYAN
PROFESSOR
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C’mon
Keith…why would we want women in ministry?
…they tend to be more disciplined. Wouldn’t you rather have a pastor who
rushes around at the last minute trying to figure out what to preach?
That way he’ll really have to depend on the Holy Spirit.
…they tend to be more intuitive. Wouldn’t you rather have a pastor who
isn’t as aware of your spiritual needs? That way you could get away with
being a spiritual infant a little easier.
…they tend to be more committed. Wouldn’t you rather have a pastor who is
leading your church because he drifted along in the wake of a neat youth pastor
role model rather than someone who was willing to pursue her call while
fighting through the prejudice against her gender in ministry? That way a
whole bunch of other low commitment kids could wander into the profession.
…they tend to be…women. Wouldn’t you rather have a male pastor who is
unable to identify with more than half the people of his congregation (the
women)? OK, OK…a female pastor won’t be able to identify with the men in
her congregation…but maybe it’s time for the guys to be on the losing end.
Wouldn’t it
be better if we told God He was wrong to give women the gifts and calling of
ministry?
If women get to pastor where will we get church secretaries?
If women get to pastor who will staff the nursery?
If women get to pastor will men have to cook for potluck dinners?
If women get to pastor will they still have time to vacuum the sanctuary on
Saturday?
If women get to pastor what do we call their spouse? The “first man of
the parsonage”…the “king of the parsonage” It
just doesn’t role of the tongue well enough.
Thanks for
calling attention to this issue.
I’m the pastor of a church that has women on staff. We
have sent at least six women to a Wesleyan school to prepare for
ministry. Of the three who have graduated so far; one is in a pastoral
role, one is working as a secretary in a large church and one works at a
Christian bookstore.
I’m sad that the best realistic hope many women ministry
majors have for ministry is to get married to a guy who will become a
pastor. That way they at least get to be an unpaid pastor. What a
deal for a church, huh? A two-fer.
One salary…two well trained people.
Keep on keeping on stirring the waters…. --
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You in this
piece, and Ken in his earlier paper have formulated our position so well.
Thanks for letting me rub elbows with you. I feel safe…as long as I don’t cross
you.
COLLEGE
PROFESSOR
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Good article. I wish I’d written it. I
think there has been some movement (in a positive direction) by some of the
people that you reference without names. I’ll be happy to talk to you
more about it this weekend.
DENOMINATIONAL
OFFICIAL
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Thank you,
thank you, thank you! :)
WOMEN
MINISTER ON STAFF
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Holy moly, what a column this week ... a direct attack ... this
is how the world works ... make those in the middle chose -- can't just be
"for" you have to "do something" ... of course, if your
plan succeeds we may make martyrs out of the opposers
to women ... but at least your plan affirms that the burden of proof is ON THEM
as dissenters ... they should at least know they are dissenting and do it with
the rebellious attitude implied ...
SEMINARY
STUDENT
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Ha ha! I gotta’ say I
loved your newest article about women in ministry! Right
on. And it pushed me too. I think I've too often been one of
the people you described who look at this subject as a matter of
"opinion." Wrong. You're right--it's time we actually DO
something proactive about it. Way to just speak the
truth....regardless of what the consequences may be.
MINISTER ON
STAFF
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You know I'm with you. You're the one who can
do it (by God's grace and gifting).
COLLEGE
PROFESSOR
As usual, very thought-provoking article.
But I disagree with the conclusion. I don't think the right way to deal
with
the
'problem' is to double-up the problem. It sounds a little too close to returning evil for
evil to me. I think these things take time. It might be annoying. It likely is wrong. But
that's reality. Change takes time. A lot of time in most cases. Instead of
black-listing a DS (who is most likely standing on a strong conviction and
you agree with on 99.9% of the issues)
It'd be better, in my opinion, to...well, to put it bluntly, let him
die. If we are
teaching that women are equals in leadership then the next generation will believe it more than this one. And the
one after that will believe it more than that one. And eventually GS's, DS's, College faculty,
--PASTOR
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Keith,
Thanks for
a thoughtful column on an issue that is very much a concern for religion
faculty here at SWU. You are right that The Wesleyan
Church does its youth conventions well, yet there was a notable absence of
women speakers and leaders in
--COLLEGE PROFESSOR
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Keith:
Thanks for
so eloquently speaking to a growing and persistent frustration on this campus.
There is a powerful calling in the hearts of our best and brightest women but that
call is not being answered within our local churches or districts. I do receive
comparable frustrations from many district superintendents who in the real
world also feel helpless in their efforts to change attitudes at the local
level. I am convinced that it will require that all of us in leadership
at all levels speak more loudly and in concert regarding this
persistent issue. Of all denominations and especially within the
Holiness movement, women have played a powerful role in the ministry of the church.
It seems as if we need to go "back to the future" to realize the
significant loss of leadership potential we may be witnessing regarding these
outstanding women on our campuses. I
must apologize for not speaking as often and as persistently on this issue as
is necessary. Your excellent piece has reminded my of my ordained
grandmother who as a Salvation Army Captain could out preach any man and did so
for her 42 years of ministry. God will call these women and place them
regardless and the great tragedy will be the absence of their vitality and
gifts from our churches. Thanks for the
reminder of an issue that must not be ignored.
COLLEGE
PRESIDENT
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Whew! That's good, and ought to make for a
great debate. We're where civil rights were under
--PASTOR
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Dr. Drury,
I
read your column on women in ministry with more than a little interest, as I
have a daughter attending
--NAZARENE PASTOR
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Hello Br.
Keith,
Don't believe I've ever found anybody who understands and
speaks right out just the way you do. I am praising God that He's given
someone the voice and wisdom to say what you've said. God bless your
heart.
NAZARENE
WOMEN MINISTER
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Keith,
I just read
your article “Quit Sending Your Daughters to Wesleyan Youth Convention”.
It brought tears. This was the first time I have seen in print—truthfully what
is going on in our ministry world. _______________(STORY
OMITTED HERE______________________________________________________________
_______________. Now things turned out OK. However, the tears
quickly moved to amazement. How brave you are to write the truth in such
a direct way. Possibly, your article will cause many leaders to evaluate
our stance on women in ministry. Many times I feel it would be better to
deal with the Baptist…at least I would know straight up where the leadership
stands on this issue.
Thank you for taking the hits to tell the
truth.
---WOMEN MINISTER
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CORRECT !!!!! IT'S TIME OUR MINISTERS GOT
OFF THEIR EGO
TRIPS IN THE
WESLEYAN
LAYMAN
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Keith:
Way to
go! Thanks for your article about Wesleyan women in ministry. I
don't have time for extended discussion, but I'm wondering if I may have your
permission to copy it and take the copies (50 or so) to the "Come to the
Water" conference this week. I'm leading the denominational session
for Wesleyans and would like to have it available, if you are agreeable.
Just let me know. Thanks again!
COLLEGE
PROFESSOR
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(copy to
Drury of email to a pastor) I have received an email from you that was prompted by a recent article
written by
WESLEYAN
DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT
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The problem
is much deeper than you describe. The
holiness movement has a lot of men like you who sound great in person or on
paper, but when it comes down to making the hiring decision they simply do not
“prefer” women. Ther
is no hope—I simply had to leave the denomination
---FORMER WESLEYAN WOMEN MINISTER
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Keith,
Strong
words but needed in this part of the country.
There is a growing number of pastors (and leaders?) with a
fundamentalist approach to Scripture— we are headed in these parts toward
totally abandoning Wesleyan roots and becoming Baptists in our use of
Scripture. THIS is where the problem lies—it
is not about women in ministry—it is about how we use Scripture.
--WESLEYAN PASTOR
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Thank you, thank
you so much--- I have been so discouraged for my daughter’s future. She has simply given up on her calling since
being in college and now only wants to “find a minister to marry so I don’t
cause trouble.” When a man gives up on
his calling we are all concerned—when a women gives up there is only relief in
the church. Something is wrong. Thanks for at least trying to say something
about this.
MOTHER OF WOMEN IN [former]
MINISTERIAL TRAINING
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Forget
it—your attempt will not succeed. The
reason the Wesleyans (and Church of the Nazarene also) do not use women is
because of our church polity—we chose pastors by popular vote after boards have
recommended a name. I have faithfully
taken the resumes of women to churches and they ALWAYS do not prefer the women
and chose the males even after I attempt to persuade them to give the women a
chance. Unless you are willing to give DSs the full power to “place” pastors it will never
happen. I am on your side but this is a
cultural battle, not a church matter.
The church has sided in the cultural battle against greater roles for
women and thus any attempt to make room for them in the church has the
appearance of being “liberal.” I have
interviewed many of our promising women coming along and none of them are “feminazis” (as some boards ask me) but it doesn’t
matter—you forget how many ditto-heads the holiness denominations have today.
--NAZARENE DISTRICT LEADER
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Coach d,
Your column
was a fresh wind to my sad soul today.
Maybe there IS hope after all for me and my calling.
--WESLEYAN WOMEN STUDENT
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[excerpt] …which is why I finally had to leave my home
denomination… I loved it, but all I got was good speeches and encouraging
words—no action. However, I have never
been so happy ministering here so it all turned out wonderfully. But during General Conference when I’ll not
be there I will miss my “home” denomination and wish I could have stayed home.
--[FORMER]
WESLEYAN WOMEN MINISTER
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[excerpt] …he now says the right words now and has
“submitted” to the denomination’s position on this but we all know his real
position—it is the position he took years ago; all he is doing now is giving the
company line so he can survive the questions.
--WESLEYAN PASTOR
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[excerpt] …and that is
the central problem with your position is what you have to do to Scripture to
end up there. If you can treat clear
Scriptural injunctions about women so lightly as to dismiss them easily it will
not be long until you will be calling for the ordination of homosexuals too
using the same approach to Scripture.
That is why Wesleyans cannot remain conservative for long—they always
get liberal. The only safe anchor
against liberalism is a strong orthodox Calvinism.
--REFORMED PASTOR
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I say it is
time for a woman General Superintendent—until we have a woman in the “highest
office of the church” we will never see local churches lining up on this. Let’s take Joanne Lyon by force and make her
king this summer!
--WESLEYAN YOUTH PASTOR
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My own DS
here has been a steady supporter of me and my ministry as a women but when I
meet with other women from other districts (and denominations) I ache to hear
how they are treated. Some district minister’s
retreats are more like locker rooms and hunting lodges than real meeting of
people interested in the spiritual formation of a church.
--FREE METHODIST WOMEN IN MINISTRY
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[excerpt] …and I will
continue to oppose women’s ordination any way I can. In this denomination I can’t do it openly,
but there are plenty of ways I can do it without being detected. It is not because I do not value women—I hold
them in such high value that I refuse to let them degrade themselves by setting
aside their God-ordained roles as help-meet and supporter.
--
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[excerpt] …and it will
be the homosexuals next. Most of the
women seeking ordination are practicing lesbians anyway and this is just the
first step in legitimizing ordination of homosexuals…
---
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[excerpt] …God has
ordained the roles of women and you have no right to sit there in your
educational ivory tower and twist God’s word out of what He meant. ANYONE WHO CAN’T UNDERSTAND THAT THE BIBLE
CLEARLY BANS WOMEN FROM MINISTRY NEEDS THEIR EYES EXAMINED.
--PASTOR
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As always
you know how to stir up a storm. I
remember when you did it with your “Holiness movement is dead” speech at
CHA. Now again you do it with the women
in ministry issue. You seem to have a
sense of perfect timing about these things—if you had written that a few years
ago it would not have had the effect it will have today. And if you had waited a few more years the
“women-blockers” may have the upper hand by then—or at least we may have “made
room” for them. You seem to know when to
drop the A-bomb that ripples all across the holiness movement. Good for you!
--NAZARENE PASTOR
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You are
WRONG on this one. You Wesleyans love
the “Wesleyan quadrilateral” but it comes back to bite you in the ____ on this
one. The ordination of women is cannot
be supported by neither Scripture, reason, tradition, nor
experience.
---REFORMED PASTOR
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This ( "Wesleyans need to quit sending their daughters
"etc.) is excellent, right on target and
needs to be shouted from the roof-tops.
--WESLEYAN DENOMINATION OFFICIAL
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[excerpt] …It is about
time a man got mad about this.
I am a Wesleyan turned ordained Salvation Army Officer/minister. ….It is
a struggle here also. We preach it, it is in our orders and regulations,
but there are men in our churches (corps), and in some cases the higher
ranks, who refuge to let a female officer fulfill her ministry without
making her out to be dumb or something. I am very accepted in my calling,
and because Lois Watkins was a great inspiration, I am where God needs me
to be. I hope that the DS' and powers that be take a wake up call to what
you have had to say to the
--SALVATION ARMY OFFICER
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[excerpt] …Wow! Are you LOOKING to get ex-communicated? Well, if you do, you will have some people in your camp. Especially all the parents of female children who know exactly what kind of obstacles they'll face going into fulltime ministry. My wife has faced her share, including from a minister formerly in the _______________ district who refused to pray with her at a District prayer meeting when all the other "guys" paired off, (all standing in the same room), finally, after looking around she saw another minister and his friend and they invited her to their circle and they prayed together. In another case, the camp meeting "announcer" (a retired minister) refused to use the term "pastors and spouses" when making the announcements over the camp sound system when announcing the upcoming fellowship of pastors and spouses. He purposefully kept announcing "pastors and wives", even after the D.S. told him to announce it the other way. I could give you many more examples of her being slighted (and in some cases, treated like a pariah) by other ministers and D. S.'s.... but don't be discouraged, she keeps plugging away, so should you. Our fear is that our daughter, will become embittered and lose focus. We pray for her so hard. She loves the fact that there are women on faculty at Asbury. She thoroughly lives for heated debates over philosophy and theology, well, just about anything really, but you probably know that. Please keep her in your prayers. Keep on preaching it brother.....you have the chance to make a difference in the thinking of some of our beloved leaders in this denomination, it's up to them whether they listen.
--WESLEYAN PASTOR/PARENT OF WOMEN IN TRAINING
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Keith,
Thanks for
sticking your neck out on the women in ministry issue again. It is not new territory you are staking;
you’ve been on this ground before. And I
admire you for being so eloquent and straightforward. I will personally keep recommending,
promoting and using called, gifted, qualified women for ministry leadership
roles across our church wherever my influence allows. Your article reinforces my own resolve.
--WESLEYAN GENERAL OFFICER
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Forget Barry Bonds. You hit more home runs than he ever will! (You're not on steroids, are you?) I've been showing this to everybody - total strangers on the street, that kind of thing - and it occurred to me that I haven't told YOU how much I like it! In our somewhat limited circles, this bids to be your new "The Holiness Movement is Dead" piece. Thank you. Our best to Sharon and the fam.
--WESLEYAN PROFESSOR
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It is so
strange to write as if I actually know you. Thank you for your article,
"Wesleyans need to stop sending their daughters to youth
conventions." I have been in ministry in the Wesleyan church of
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Keith,
Glad you spoke out about the theological slackers in the holiness
movement who silently and defiantly hold women back from fulfilling their
calling. Its been much the same over here in the
--James
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… brilliantly
creative and engaging. "Bottom-of-the-barrel-male student" comment
resonates with many thoughts I've had through the years on this subject. ...
And, your "may sound naughty" advice of blacklisted got me chuckling
at this early hour. Like Erasmus, you're bent on "telling the truth with a
smile."
WESLEYAN
COLLEGE ADMINISTRATOR
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Keith,
Greetings brother. As
for the article I have one more solution that I was disappointed that you did
not include in the article. Global
Partners is still open to women to serve in other countries of the world. We need workers. Pray that the Lord of the harvest will send
workers (especially women ) into the harvest
fields. I personally believe the church
would be stronger if all ministerial students were required to spend at least 6
months on a foreign field as a part of their preparation. That would give all of them a world view and
confirm for many a call to a world wide ministry. What I tell students is that spending time on
a mission field during their education will help them “know the
questions”. Our educational institutions
have many wonderful answers but our students don’t seem to know the questions. Brother,
I am so encouraged that you keep on keeping on! Don’t ever stop!!
--WESLEYAN MISSIONARY
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It was nice to read your thoughts on women in the
ministry. My sister-in-law is currently a minister in
I have seen the Wesleyan church I grew up in go
thru 3 male ministers in the last 5 years. 2 of which tragically had to
leave the church due to immoral circumstances they got themselves
into. And if I remember right, they weren't of Wesleyan background.
My sister-in-law was the associate pastor of this church for many
years but the board felt compelled to check out the internet for a
pastor! Yet, one of the best ones they could have had was right there in
the church! Needless to say, when the last pastor had to leave, the
church also released her of her duties because she was the "whistle
blower" on the previous minister to the district and she was the daughter-in-law
of the woman they felt led the fight against the last minister and he was
eventually voted out. Believe me; she was guilty of nothing except trying
to keep morality in the church. The minister of a church shouldn't be a
child molester or a liar. Wouldn't you agree? It's really a sad situation
in the church today. The New Testament is full of women who kept the
churches going. I don't understand what the church boards and DS's are
thinking but I can guarantee you they are not truly praying for God's will in
their choices. I want you to know I'll keep our churches, church boards,
and districts in my prayers. That's all I can do as I'm not on a board to
help make any decisions. I will also keep you in my prayers as you
have the boldness to bring this problem to light. God bless you and your
family Keith. Keep up the good work and you will see God's reward
someday.
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Dr.
Drury,
I
enjoyed your article on the state of women in the ministry. And I agree. There
are too many talented women out there, not getting a shot. I expect those in
charge are too threatened by a woman who can minister as well, or better than, they can. Our district missed a perfect shot to support a
woman becoming DS when ________________(extended story
omitted)_______________________________________ She deserved the position
and our district would have profited from her leadership. I have served under
several women -- in the secular arena as well as in the church and para-church structures. No one will ever convince me that
women aren't called to leadership positions in the church -- at every level.
Thanks for the provocative essay.
WESLEYAN
PASTOR
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Keith:
Still
out here swinging from the trees in the jungles of evangelicalism fighting the Baptists
or any other form of non holiness stuff. Hey went to the movies. What's so
bad about them? Boy have I missed a lot.
--NAZARENE EVANGELIST
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Thank you for speaking up and supporting women in ministry so boldly.
Knowing that there are leaders like yourself who are
willing to go to such lengths for us is motivating and encouraging. You words
continue to race through my mind. "God wouldn't call you to ministry and
not give you a place to minister." I am grateful that, at this
time, my place of ministry is in the Wesleyan
church and pray that that will continue to be the case. However, knowing
that there are voices speaking up and people willing to take action, God has
given tangible assurance, and we will continue to persevere.
Thank you again,
--WOMEN WESLEYAN YOUTH
PASTOR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The above responses do not include all responses of the first several days but
generally reflect the total responses and the “weighting of sides” of the first
responses to the column.