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"Big guys fall" response:

First, I'm praying for you and Sharon. May your marriage and love continue to grow stronger every day. May God help you both keep the wall around 100% of your lives. Second, thanks for speaking to this issue again. I appreciate the affirmation and the warning. I'm committed to even greater vigilance.

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"Big guys fall" response:

Thanks for your heart-felt and thought provoking message. I have found myself re-evaluating my own heart and the things I treasure. My fallen heroes are still my heroes- they have impacted me too much to throw their mentoring away. We must all, somehow, keep on keeping on.

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"Big guys fall" response:

I'm hurt because of news I found out this last week of a person whom I looked up to and I know that many others did to. It also bothers me that it seems to be happening more and more. Here are a few more things I would add though:

1. Job 31:1 " I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl"

2. Take out or remove anything that would causes me to take my focus of Christ. From magazines to the things I might see on TV. When I was a growing up my Dad would change the channel on the TV if there was anything that came on that would not be good to hear or see. In short, we didn't watch that much TV and I would get mad at times because you would end up turning off the TV. But in the last several years I have realize how wise my Dad was.

I have heard ministers say you need to watch, hear, and read to know what your people and the world are into. You need to relate to them they would say. I don't need to watch, hear, and read to know how to relate. Sin is the same that it was 2000 years ago.

3. I have been challenged this last year to pray and have devotions with my wife on a daily basis. My question is? How many of us pray with our wives on a consistent basis.

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"Big guys fall" response:

i too have been "shaken" from the most recent fall... i recently had a conversation with a friend in ministry who compared us (ministers) to those who work on high buildings. i thought it was a great analogy and it might help someone else also. if we saw or knew of a guy who worked on skyscrapers without any safety harness or wiring we would think he is a fool. in the same way, we can't be in ministry without the "safety lines" of accountability, etc. the longer we are in ministry, the higher the building gets, therefore the higher the fall and the more damage done. those of us that are young (i'm 29) are scared. i told that to my wife, that every time we hear about someone else falling it scares us. she said firmly, "you guys should be!" maybe we do need some more holy fear. i guess it couldn't hurt. one of my genuine heroes has fallen. he was a "gordon macdonald" in my life. for me the shock and reality hit home with this one than with any other by far. however, it caused a open and frank discussion with my wife that hasn't happened between us in a while. i am even more convinced of the scripture "God cannot be mocked..." when will we learn?

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"Big guys fall" response:

I'd like to make a few observations, for your consideration:

Workaholics are used by denominations just as they are by for-profit businesses. They get things done that enhance the bottom line. Businesses are not expected to put the well-being of employees before profits. To them, employee turnover is simply an economic issue--a matter of finding the optimum salaries, benefits, and working conditions that maximize profits. Wesleyan pastors would be treated far better if even this amoral business principle was honored. Unfortunately, too often we act more like the task masters of slaves--acting as if their great exertions are the lot to which they have been born (or called) and hence of no concern. Kill one slave off with labor, buy another. Any business in America that had the employee turnover we see in ministry would evaluate its policies.

Most of the Really Big Guys are workaholics. This is for the following reasons: a) They work harder. Obvious, isn't it. b) They are emotionally troubled, which makes them more effectively empathetic. They typically were raised in homes which were full of conflict. This caused them to learn to meet emotional needs outside the home, rather than within it. The workaholics I know have home and work mixed up--home is where you battle and compete, while work is where you find emotional comfort. c) They learned to be charming in their volatile home of origin as a means of defusing conflict. This use of charm has given them a powerful tool for use in ministry, to either motivate or manipulate.

The danger for the workaholic pastor is that work is his means of emotional comfort. He has learned to look for emotional comfort outside home and family. When work becomes a source of emotional pain, rather than comfort, where will he turn for emotional comfort. He is willing and able to charm and manipulate. Will he use these gifts to gain emotional comfort outside his home and family? He is disillusioned with his ministry (and by extension, God) because it has failed to meet his chronic emotional need and has instead created emotional pain. He is powerful, financially well-to-do (by ministerial standards), and charming. He radiates love and compassion (remember, he is effectively empathetic). He is a magnet for women who is emotionally pained, spiritually disillusioned, and looking outside his home and family for emotional comfort. Is it any wonder he falls?

His anchor should be faith and truth. His faith is shaken. His concept of truth is faulty. He does not believe in internal cleansing, but in the suppression of a remaining carnal nature. Since he doesn't believe in internal cleansing, he can't receive it. Since he is weakened by fatigue and disillusionment, he can't suppress the animal nature that has remained within. Is it any wonder he falls?

We keep promoting men who teach a new version of holiness theology. They keep falling. -- Wanting to Finish the Course,

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"Big guys fall" response:

What really breaks my heart about big guys falling is the devastation it has on those looking up to them. Many of these men were pastoral and spiritual mentors to us. When it happens you feel not only hurt because of the sin nature, but also betrayed and deceived. I wish I knew how some of these men can "tell" us how not to get ourselves into a compromising position, and yet be in one themselves. It makes you want to cry. I am not ashamed to admit that I have wept over some of these big guys falling.

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"Big guys fall" response:

Permit me to suggest a topic for your consideration.

SHOULD THERE BE VARYING DEGREES OF ADMONITION FOR THE CLERGY?

Should congress impeach President Clinton but only censure Rep. Newt Gingrich? Does every shortcoming merit removal from office? Should the punishment match the crime or should a minister receive the maximum penalty?

AT WHAT POINT SHOULD A MINISTER BE DEPOSED?

Yelling at kids >> yelling at spouse >>> yelling at members >>> yelling in board meetings >> yelling at the DS? Stealing postage stamps >>> abusing phone privileges >> minor fund discrepancies >>> tax evasion >>> embezzlement?

Embellishing sermons >>> embellishing reports >> lying to the board >>> lying on a resume?

Infatuation >> emotional attachment >> daily phone calls >> personal meetings >>> gifts >> embrace>> kissing >> sex.

PG movies >> NC17 movies >> R movies >> Internet porn >> phone sex >> prostitution?

DOES ONE SIZE FIT ALL?

Can a minister be censured or disciplined as opposed to being defrocked or deposed?

SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT.

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"Big guys fall" response:

Thank you for your insights and concern for pastors. As you well know, our profession is taking it on the chin these days. When I hear of any brother who has fallen, I am greatly saddened. The "fallout" is just awful. I would respond with some insights from 31 years as a pastor. I would suggest four other problem areas:

1) Lack of time with God. I know this sounds like an old "record" played over and over, but it true. I beg to ask the question - if we are walking in the Spirit and examining ourselves in the light of God's Word on a consistent and daily basis - how do we allow ourselves to get into a compromising position? Surely the Holy Spirit has more power to warn us before we fall!! I know this is not easy, but essential for any pastor - be he "big" or "little". I know it is hard because the "ministry" begs for our time and people demands are strong in these days. As a matter of fact, in my last pastorate I used Tuesday - all day - away from the office for a day of fasting, prayer and study. Guess what? I was criticized for taking another "day off." The fact of the matter is that without that day, I would have lost my spiritual edge and perspective.

2) When will we... deal with our theology of Satan and evil? Why is it so hard for us to see that Satan desires God's men and women in the ministry? We have become so afraid of being deemed "Pentecostal" that we have ignored Satan and spiritual warfare. I believe many fall because they have given "place" to Satan and evil. There is a time when we take our place as God's people and do spiritual warfare and "resist" the enemy. Satan wants all of us, but especially the "big guys".

3) We let the Church become our "god". I remember saying to congregation: "I love you and will serve you the best I can, but if I have to chose between you and my wife, I choose my wife." Believe it or not, that statement was a source of much criticism from the good church folks. We need to stop being obsessed with the "ministry" and be people who "make it their aim to PLEASE GOD." The church is a fickle and cruel "god". Any god other than Jesus Christ is cruel and will bring us down. Sure we work! Sure we spend time with the needs of the people! Sure we do the work of pastor! But NEVER to the neglect of time with God, spouse and family.

4) EGO - One of our problems is that we begin to believe what people say about us. We really begin to believe that we are the next "Billy Graham" We really do believe that nobody has ever filled the present pulpit like us. We really do believe we are only one who has ever shown love to his people. Someone said: "Be careful about believing your critics and your admirers - both can sink you."

Keith, I really liked your article, but one thing I question - In the whole issue of being trapped - Where does this idea of "climbing the ladder again" come from?

I fear that we are telling young guys that it is OK to "climb the ladder" I believe it is God who raises up one and takes down another. If we are not careful, we create a spirit of competition that last a lifetime in pastor's life.

Thanks for listening.

One of your avid readers:

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"Big guys fall" response:

When a big guy falls it is obvious to all involved that effects are so much greater. I didn't really sweat it when Swaggart or Bakker took a dive, but this whole Seaborn thing has me in knots. I am fully aware that no man is immune from the temptation, but this one really falls too close to home. To be honest it hurts. I think about King Solomon and how he drifted away from God...gradually at first but in the end he ended up really selling out in sin land...as I see it in Solomon's life..Drifting begins with an attitude - Drifting develops into an mindset - and then Drifting becomes a way of life. I pray that God will protect our leaders...we dont need any more "big guys" or "little guys" to fall.

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"Big guys fall" response:

With the growing problem of sexual addiction, isolation, and fatigue among ministers, reminders and support on the subject of sexual sin can never be to frequent. I am following a pastor who had an affair with the church secretary. He wasn't a big guy, our church only averages 150 or so. But, his sin had a large impact. I would be interested in hearing from other pastors who are following, or have followed a pastor who betrayed his trust through sexual sin. E-mail me with your observations. We can network with each other in an attempt to heal our congregations. onedoulos@hotmail.com

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"Big guys fall" response:

You are very generous in your reasoning for why the Big Guy's fall! ....(overwork, opposition, burnout, lack of sleep, etc). And, your desire to forewarn and forearm others about the possible hazard is very commendable! My thinking, as to why the Big Guys fall can be articulated in a quote from Sen. John McCain (St.Louis Post-Dispatch 2/29/2000) when he talks about two religious leaders from Virginia who are "...self-appointed leaders of the religious right , both of whom are empire builders, turning good causes into businesses." This is applicable to sex, politics, denominational status, money, etc. As some minister's sweep in the large amounts of adulation from their followers, they become egotistical gods, who slowly (but surely) want to benefit from their greatness. Pride captivates the soul! They become so great in their own eyes that they rise "high above the masses" and can do no wrong! The resultant fall is so hard because of the tremendous height (probably higher than the heavens) all the way down to the depths (probably lower than the pits) which they have fallen. Your Bible warned about pride! Most of the Big Guy's , that I know personally who have fallen, succumbed long ago to the doctrine of accommodation in their ministry

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"Big guys fall" response:

Thank you for your article. ... I am getting so sick of hearing of the many Pastors who are falling into sexual sin. It actually makes me very upset because these men are shaping the futures of many vulnerable young people. What an example they are setting for a generation where sexual sin is the "going thing." We all need to remember that these men are flesh and bone, nothing more and nothing less. If we put our trust in any man, big or not, they will ultimately fail us. I'm thankful that we can put our trust in the God of the Universe and that He will NEVER let us down. We need to make Him our ultimate "hero," instead of these so called "spiritual hero's" of the church.... Will these tragedy's ever end?

I harbor no bitterness or anger towards any of them, I just feel an overwhelming sadness for them and especially for their families. God is in control and we need trust Him...He knows what's best! Thanks for listening!

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"Big guys fall" response:

I was overwhelmed this week to hear about a [person who was my model] who had an affair and was caught this week. When I received news of his sexual immorality I was shocked. I said, "No way! Not him!" It was as if someone told me that Billy Graham ran off with his secretary - I wouldn't believe it in a 100 years! I said, "No way! Not him." But then confirmation came in that this was indeed the case. It broke my heart and I wept for about 30 minutes. I couldn't study or visit or do anything but sit in my church office chair feeling like a boulder was on my chest.

I felt bad for this man, his family, his church,.. and all the other pastors, missionaries, Christian workers he had [influenced] over the years. I thought, "How are they feeling now? Do they feel like me? What damage will this do to them?" And then I went over some of my old school notes I had saved from his classes. And in a class on pastoral ministry I found a comment he had made in relation to pastoral purity. In a hypothetical situation about a single lady coming into my office for pastoral counseling, I said, "I'd leave my door open with my wife just outside the adjoining room." His comments were, "Yes, this is so very important today because of so many pastors morally failing." I read those words after he wrote them three years ago and thought to myself, "Goodnight! How can he write this stuff and do what he did?" My greatest fear is this, Keith: If it can happen to a great and godly man with all of his degrees on his wall and books with his name on it, what about me, the little guy? I was fearful. But then I read your article and it helped me a bunch! Thanks for writing it!

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"Big guys fall" response:

When the big guys are guilty of idolatrous indiscretion....

Maybe it's not sexual indiscretion that needs to be written more about, perhaps enough really has been said about it. Maybe if every one of those articles about sexual indiscretion had the words referring to sex replaced with words referring to opportunistic lust, power greed, control glutton, vengeful itch, financial cravings, angry passion or big-church covetousness it would apply to as many leaders as sexual indiscretion does. Sadly these words aren't written in reference to leaders in business - they are witnessed throughout the church organization today. But one says "Oh, sure, they're bad, but sex, well now that's really bad." Worse that what? I can't find a sin hierarchy anywhere in the Bible.

It's painful to watch a big guy fall - but rarely do we see one fall from any of the 'other' deadly sins. Why not? It certainly isn't because they aren't being committed. Why will we point a finger when someone has turned their back on kingdom work in pursuit of sex outside marriage but not when their back is turned on kingdom work in pursuit of the biggest church in the district or area? in pursuit of power via politicking at the district/national level? in pursuit of control by back dooring their vice chairman, the church pastor, the district superintendent or committee chair?

How many see the fall of the big guy as opportunity to polish their resume?

While trying to run our church like a business, have we fallen prey to it's twin - corporate politics. Do we choose our leaders by the spirit or by the church growth their resume shows. Is the church growth performance pressure only from the 'bottom up' on our leaders, or is it also from the top down? Be sure - our laity sees this. What's the message they read? "The pastorate is no longer a calling for a pastor - it's a career for a leader and our church is simply a stepping stone." With actions leading our laity to this way of thinking, is it any wonder they don't feel any calling themselves? When laity starts seeing the church in the same light as their jobs they also begin to act as if it is their job - get their just in time and give nothing more than is expected.

How many times have we seen leaders, anxious to 'put their guy in place', use innuendo to cast a shadow on the favored candidate for a position, whether it's for vice-chair, pastor or a committee or board leader? And why is this everyone's fault? Because to avoid looking foolish, we say nothing and shake our heads in private, the perpetrator thinks (s)he has gotten away with the deceitful manipulation and continues his/her antics. Even sadder? Many who might read this would think it doesn't apply to them.

Pastors are trained to train their people how to grow a church. When was the last time we trained our pastors to train their people to evangelize?

Pastoral leaders shouldn't be surprised when their congregations expect them to do all of the fishing - they don't know how to fish for themselves. How many times do we follow up our revival meetings with evangelism training? The Christian community was born through evangelism. When the United States was growing by leaps and bounds, churches were built and filled because the immigrants coming here knew of Jesus Christ and there was no need to evangelize them. What happened? What makes us think that a stranger to Christianity will walk into our churches to 'get saved' anymore than a Christian would walk into a bar to 'get drunk'?

What's the answer? There isn't one - there's many. Sin is sin and we need to refocus so that our view isn't a pin point. When police records show that a disproportionate number of arrests are made within a certain race, crime description or neighborhood, it's called differential policing. Are we guilty of the same tunnel vision? Do we only care about the sins we can 'see'. It's hard to accuse someone of covetousness, greed, or vengeance because those sins are surreptitious and the accused can rationalize their actions and the accuser made to look like a fool. Are we no longer emboldened through the Holy Spirit to call wrong wrong? There needs to be a pervasive movement back to holiness. The church growth movement should have been a supplement to the holiness movement - instead it has become a replacement. We don't have Holiness Rallies with workshops to teach our laity how to evangelize - we have Church Growth Rallies to teach our laity the latest sociological and demographic trends and how they impact our efforts, however weak they may be.

We no longer let God choose the foolish to confound the wise, we choose the polished to dazzle those who are watching.

If we topple the pedestal when we see sexual sin and not when we see idolatrous sin, are we not also a partner to that idolatrous sin?

--Doctoral Student of Social Welfare